J2o how do you play the turn and river here?

[mike l.]

i have J2o and 2 players limp in. utg is pretty bad but maybe okay, the other player is plum awful. the sb comes in, i check. 4 of us.

the flop is 932 rainbow. sb checks, i bet, utg calls, other guy calls, sb folds.

i bet the turn in the dark, utg sees this and raises in the dark really fast and furious and even a little angry seeming. he had seen me bet in the dark on a few hands before and seemed irritated by it.

the turn card comes a T and the limper tries to check, but dealer alerts him that there's a bet and a raise to him. he folds. how do i play out this hand?

[Sehr Gut]

If the utg player is a maybe okey player i think he would raise the flop with a nine. He shouldnt have a better 2 or a 3 either.
So when he raises the turn in the dark it really sounds like he is just tired of you betting into him all the time. Thats the feeling i get from what you describe.
If this feeling is right i reed him for overcards. QJ or something like that. Anyway there is no chance i would fold here. I would call his raise and just checkcall the river if i didnt improve. But i would never do this if i knew that he wasnt able to bluffraise because of what he thought of you. Was that clear? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Sehr gut

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
utg is pretty bad but maybe okay

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason I find that description more hilarious than it really is.

[ QUOTE ]
how do i play out this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call and bet the river dark would be pretty snazzy. But just fold it mike. Sure, these games are crazy and people are putting all kinds of moves on and this guy is irritated by your dark bet.

But let's forget about all that for a second. You bet the flop w/ bottom-pair/mediocre-kicker. A guy called. You bet the turn dark and just knowing those flop cards, this guy raised. I bet, most times, that means two things:

1) He's unlikely to fold.
2) He probably has at least bottom pair / better kicker.

Just fold. Next time, when you have J3 in this spot, then you can go crazy.

[elindauer]

Call. Then tell the dealer to hold on a minute. While everyone is waiting for you, stare down your opponent for 6, no, 7 seconds. Bet dark. Before he has a chance to respond, bark like a dog, smile, then calmly throw your hand in the muck.

You'll lose a lot of money, but it'll be the most fun you've ever had a poker table. You'll probably make it all back anyways, as your opponents will now fear you.


If this isn't your style, just fold. Betting the turn dark is a big mistake, in my opinion.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Call and bet the river dark would be pretty snazzy.

[/ QUOTE ]
it would! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif how about a dark reraise on the turn? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

i am dying to know the results... did he have something like KJo??

[mike l.]

"Call and bet the river dark would be pretty snazzy."

yeah i know. i completely chickened out.

"Sure, these games are crazy"

yes they are.

"and people are putting all kinds of moves on"

no theyre not.

"and this guy is irritated by your dark bet."

yes he is, and that's why calling the turn and betting the river dark is the best play.

i called the turn and it went check-check on the river and my hand was good.

[Clarkmeister]

I love how people are afraid to answer posts like this from you, but a million people will chime in about open raising KJo 3 from the button.

Preflop play is easy. This is where the money is at.

Ni Han.

[andyfox]

I don't think too many people have much experience, or have thought about, betting blind on the turn into two opponents with J-2 on a 9-3-2 board. But they have thought about opening 3 off the button with K-Jo.

I agree this is where the money is at. For the other players.

[Clarkmeister]

Maybe, but they should be familiar with betting the flop with J2 on a 932 board. Do they just give up when they get called in two places? I mean, blind or not, following up the flop bet with a turn bet is pretty reasonable poker given no resistance on the flop, no?

[andyfox]

Against most opponents, yes. Against these guys, I don't know. They're not the give up types and they're the types that could have A-3 or A-2 or 4-4. Now the guy raises. Mike complains he's short-bankrolled. Is this really the position you want to put yourself in? Seems like there are going to be plenty of better opportunities to fatten your bankroll than here where the turn and river are guaranteed to be overcards to your pair.

Then again, maybe I'm just antideuces. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Fair enough, but against those types of players, a non-raise on the flop generally tells me I'm ahead. Falling back on the Tommy-esque theory that if I'm ahead, the next card is unlikely to change that situation, I can't fathom checking the turn.

Anyways, my post was really just venting at what I've perceived as a general lack of quality posts on the forums lately. Could be just me Andy, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to really think anymore. I see lots of regurgitation on the easy hands and very few people willing to actually post thoughts on the hard hands. And its the hard hands that are the most valuable IMO since most of us are hopefully at a point where we don't butcher the easy ones.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i called the turn and it went check-check on the river and my hand was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ni han. What if he had then raised the river dark again?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but they should be familiar with betting the flop with J2 on a 932 board. Do they just give up when they get called in two places? I mean, blind or not, following up the flop bet with a turn bet is pretty reasonable poker given no resistance on the flop, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop bet was standard w/ a pair on that raggy board, though against some opponents I'll go w/ checkraise and lead the turn. When just called, I think I'm ahead (or sometimes against guys who can fold something like A2 or maybe even a 3 when I follow up w/ a turn bet). Or fold overcards when they miss again on the turn. So, the turn bet is standard, too.

And now I face a raise. On a non-drawy board like this, I think two flat calls on the flop followed by a turn raise (before seeing the turn card) is going to mean I'm beat enough of the times that folding is better.

[Ulysses]

So, mike, I was thinking some more about this. Because there's a lot of opportunity to get into spots like this around here. And there used to be a time when my hand would be good a large percentage of the time after this action in this spot. I think that was because I used to screw around too much and people knew it. But over the last year as I've tightened up my game, it has become less and less likely that I'll be ahead when raised in a spot like this. And that's not because I'm weak-tight - guys know I'm very fond of 3-betting the turn w/ whatever if I think it's the best hand. So, when two guys call the flop, they could have something or be drawing. But with this board, the only draws are likely to be big pair draws. So when one of those guys raises the turn (before seeing the turn card), he's very likely to have something. And since I really can't beat many somethings w/ J2 here, I'd lay it down against all but a few specific maniacs and tricksters.

I guess what I'm saying is, would Tighty McMikey of a few months ago get to a showdown here and expect to win enough times to make it worthwhile?

[andyfox]

You're right on all counts (except one--see below). We used to have a fair amount of posts from you, Dynasty, Brier, Coilean, SKP, Backdoor, 3-bet Brett, Mason, David, Izmet, Abdul, and Tommy, to name just a few from whom I learned a lot. mike l. is really one of the few remaining posting tough ones involving post-flop play. FWIW, there's even less on RGP now, basically almost nothing.

BTW, I don't think the Tommyesque theory holds here. The degree of its validity decreases in arithmetic proportion with the strength of the hand you have that is ahead.

[mike l.]

"Mike complains he's short-bankrolled."

i was never complaining. it's just matter of fact. i like to spend my bankroll and risk going broke more often and put out of action temporarily, so i always have a small bankroll (say $3-4000 for 20-40 for instance). it tends to be the most useful/functional time/money/risk/reward ratio for me.

[mike l.]

"Fair enough, but against those types of players, a non-raise on the flop generally tells me I'm ahead. Falling back on the Tommy-esque theory that if I'm ahead, the next card is unlikely to change that situation, I can't fathom checking the turn."

perfect. this exactly sums up why i bet the turn dark and still wasnt convinced of anything after utg angrily raised the turn. and why i wished i had bet the river dark for so so many reasons.

[andyfox]

Complained was the wrong word, sorry. My point was that if indeed one would want to avoid tough spots/high variance situations because of a short bankroll, betting blind with bottom pair might not be an ideal play.

[mike l.]

"BTW, I don't think the Tommyesque theory holds here. The degree of its validity decreases in arithmetic proportion with the strength of the hand you have that is ahead."

how different would it have been if i had AK and played it this way? not too different imo and the AK is one notch lower with 6 outs to improve (or less if against something like A3!) instead of 5 for my J2. rethink this one.

antideuce is good though. i was doing your look at one card and then fold utg thing the last night. it works wonders in our cozy little 20-40 chip flurry game. i could definitely see where it'd be a mistake playing 40-80 and up at commerce or something though.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, my post was really just venting at what I've perceived as a general lack of quality posts on the forums lately. Could be just me Andy, but it doesn't seem like anyone wants to really think anymore. I see lots of regurgitation on the easy hands and very few people willing to actually post thoughts on the hard hands. And its the hard hands that are the most valuable IMO since most of us are hopefully at a point where we don't butcher the easy ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to rant about this paragraph, but I didn't feel like thinking about it.

-Diplomat

[Gabe]

I think dark betting is cool and everything, but don’t you want to represent something at least moderately scary when you do it? The flop is 932 and all your dark bet says “I have a 9, a 3, or a 2, bring it on boys.” People may begin to lose fear of it.

[WyattErb]

what's the thinking about...fold that crap!!!

[brad]

'I don't think too many people have much experience, or have thought about, betting blind on the turn into two opponents with J-2 on a 9-3-2 board'

oh come on you can easily figure everybody for overcards when no one raises you on the flop (and no draw out there)

so

if the turn isnt A-T excluding Jack then hey you gotta figure you are good (or can get say A3 to fold or 44).

a)
in my experience betting dark is just begging them to call you.

b)
i stopped betting dark after i raised KK preflop , bet dark (against 3 players i think), and flop came KKrag. oops. well at least i won.

a might conflict with b but hey theres really no reason in the real world. heh

[Sehr Gut]

Why do you wish you had bet the river dark ? For future reasons? You dont wanna show your cards?
In this particular hand would have folded or just tried a bluff raise again. Do you really want him to bluffraise you on the river? He will never call with his overcards. Why not let him at least have a chance to play his bluff all the way. To check call the river is absolutely the best play IMO.

Sehr Gut

[mike l.]

"i stopped betting dark after i raised KK preflop , bet dark (against 3 players i think), and flop came KKrag. oops."

what do you mean oops? what looks stranger there: a dark bet from a consistent dark better or a check into a field on scary board after you raise preflop?

the next realm for me is dark betting when i havent raised preflop. and not holding an A or even a pair when doing so. ill see if i can find a spot next couple of sessions.

[Boopotts]

So, when two guys call the flop, they could have something or be drawing.

For some reason, I find THIS more hilarious than it is /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]

the next realm for me is dark betting when i havent raised preflop. and not holding an A or even a pair when doing so. ill see if i can find a spot next couple of sessions.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have taken Tommy's advice about dark-betting a bit too far. Or maybe to a new level?

-Diplomat

[andyfox]

"oh come on you can easily figure everybody for overcards when no one raises you on the flop (and no draw out there) so if the turn isnt A-T excluding Jack then hey you gotta figure you are good (or can get say A3 to fold or 44)."

Generally, yes, they have overcards. Sometimes, in bigger games, they will raise with overcards, but just call with overpairs of monsters, inviting you to bet into them again on the turn. When you say, "so if the turn isn't," well obviously you don't know what the turn isn't when you bet dark.

Theother side of the coin, of course, is that most people also don't have experience with someone betting into them on the turn in the dark when that dark bettor hasn't raised pre-flop.

[andyfox]

It might be saying "I have pocket 9s, or pocket 3s or pocket 2s, or 9-3, bring it on boys." Of course here, there was a river showdown, so they now know what mike had when he bet blind. They might indeed lose their fear of it, but it might increase their fear of mike in general.

[trillig]

I dream of having 9 of you at my table.

Dr. Please start the cloning process....

You must have some really bad players at your tables to fall for that.

-t

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I dream of having 9 of you at my table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't.

[andyfox]

"I dream of having 9 of you at my table"

Better be careful what you dream for.

[Clarkmeister]

trillig,

Maybe we've played at the same table, who knows. I gather from your posts that you are living here in Vegas.

A word of well-intentioned advice. Don't fall into the "Regular Playing Vegas Local" trap of seeing someone play "different" than what is "socially accepted winning play" and assuming they are fish. Those fish walk away with the money frequently, leaving the locals wondering what happened. They console themselves that they will "get it back" the next time that player comes to their game, but they are wrong.

There is a reason those "Crazy Cali games" eat otherwise decent Vegas players alive.

[adios]

'yes he is, and that's why calling the turn and betting the river dark is the best play. "

Don't see why that would be. It could be right but not sure why it is in this situation. Did you expect a call or perhaps you thought you'd fade another raise (being a very possible bluff)? It depends on how many hands he'd bet with when checked to as opposed to how many hands he'd call with if bet into. Again it comes down to knowing your players as you seem to have a good line on this one.

[jkinetic]

I agree with the Clarkmeister(reply) on this, for once the Westside and LV unite.

You will see all kinds of unconventional play in LA, never assume that it is just bad play, it could very well be but then again...

We eat ABC alive and spit them out while ABC quotes chapter and verse from HPFAP.

My best "poker" buddy was a winning player from AC, he moved out to LA and lost the first 4 months. He said that it took him a full year to get acclimated to the LA style of poker.

Whenever he goes back to AC, which is about twice a year, he kills them, because they just have no idea.

[elysium]

hi mike
raises.....you're getting raised when you don't want to be raised. what is going on around here? that's a major defect in your total game. did it ever occur to you that the hard part about betting something like this is that you must stop any and all possible raises of your bet. how do you stop raises in this spot? well, that question addresses your total game; the whole totality of your whole entire game. you can't just say, "hey everyone i bet a lousy J2o when the lowly 2 paired and got raised." and then go on merrily like nothing happened. what happened is that you failed to stop the raise. you weren't betting your 2 pair, you were preventing a raise, or at least you were suppose to be preventing it.

mike, when i bet a 2 pair like that, i never get raised. why? because if i was going to get raised, i'd never bet it. you just cannot know how bad it is for you to just casually say that you got raised after making a bet whose prerequisite is fundamentally not getting raised, but either called or folded to. it's so bad that you should not even admit to the fact that it got raised.

also, i really believe that you made this bet as you would have if the whole hand were being played on paper. this is a people game mike and your total game has to be so devestating that people will not raise you out of sheer respect and nothing else, unless you want the raise. that is what is lacking here. the J2o is rudimentary.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
It might be saying "I have pocket 9s, or pocket 3s or pocket 2s, or 9-3, bring it on boys."

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it does.

[Tommy Angelo]

"the next realm for me is dark betting when i havent raised preflop. and not holding an A or even a pair when doing so."

The path is long, the mountain high.

[CrackerZack]

I can say with 100% honesty, I missed you.

That said, I think a dark bet followed by a dark action is almost always a call, actually almost every time I've seen it any action is a call. So this isn't such a bad raise prevention style of bet after all. Of course I've never played in Cali but hope to change that in the next year.

[andyfox]

"if i was going to get raised, i'd never bet it."

You're playing on a level light-years beyond where I live.