what level do YOU play at to make a living online?

[macedaddy]

i have been playing the .25/ .50 cent no limit games... and seem to be doing allright.. usually about 50 dollars a day, playing for a couple hours. i am not working right now, since i just moved across country, and still looking for a job... going to interviews.. that sort of thing.

so i was thinking of trying to make 100 dollars a day playing online. i was wondering if you sugguest keep playing the no limit games for a few more hours... or play 2-4? 3-6? basicly i want to make about 100 dollars a day, and could play for about 5 hours at a "better than avg... but no perfect" level. i am a pretty good player.. but in no ways great. i have played 5-10 before many times, and seem to do fine at it. thanks for the help.

[n1stunnor]

You should look into propping.It's quite easy to make 3-4k month in rake.

[Cyndie]

There are players making a living at 1/2 if they play two or more tables and get full prop, but 2/4 is more realistic.

[Slacker13]

Could you please explain "propping" to me? Thank you

[josie_wales]

Hi,
If you wish to make $100 a day at 5 hours, that is $20/hour. A decent average BB/hr would be 2, thus $20 divided by 2 = $5/$10 tables.
Right?
josie

[Jim Easton]

A prop player is a player paid by the site to play in games. They can pay by the hour (B & M cardrooms and I believe some online) or they can pay a rake rebate (I believe most online cardrooms with prop programs do it this way) in which they return a percentage (some up to 100%) of "your share" of the rake. "Your share" of the rake is usually calculated by dividing the total rake for a hand by the number of players dealt into the hand, without regard to who saw the flop.

[Cubswin]

[Cyndie]

Actually, that "dealt cards" is less common than seeing the flop...I actually was told there are some legal reasons, but I am not quite clear on them yet.

The only good thing about your share when you see the flop is that your share is usually larger, because it is divided fewer ways.

One of the sites that I work with has a way of calculating how much you put in the pot, and give you share based on that...there are also player points that are given that way...I saw $21 1/2 pots at the site, and that is substantially bigger than Party Pots.

[Lori]

There are players making a living at 1/2 if they play two or more tables and get full prop, but 2/4 is more realistic.

Of course, propping comes with many downsides, including the neccessity to be strong short handed, the loss of game selection and no longer being your own boss.

A living online can be made by playing $11 SNG's, $25 nl ring and .5/1 ring for bonuses without propping.

A good prop can do better than this, a bad prop will do worse than had he never propped.

Lori

[Cyndie]

Lori, you are talking about some older prop programs, but there are sites/programs for props and semi props that do not have those downsides.

Or the downsides are minimized.

[Lori]

Nearly a year of you being on the forums, and it is still impossible to get you to name sites when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'll try once.

Where can you prop with no boss?
Where can you prop and choose your own game and times?
Where can you prop in a game with more than six players without starting that game?

Thanks

Lori

[goodguy_1]

I have never propped and I make very good consistent money playing a combination of the following games:

MTT's-NLHE/LHE/PLHE $5-$50
SNG's-NL/LHE/PLHE-$10-$50
LHE $2-4,$3-6 and $5-10 full and short games
PLO, NLHE, PLHE blinds of 0.25/0.50 and 0.50/1.00

This provides solid income if you work hard and play well.

You can make $35/40K at the above combo if you have the skills.Thats not enough for me so I am focusing on making $60K++ in the next year or so-IF I cant do that than I'll be looking at different options for income.

I was very suprised to hear from some posters on here that they were making $60K a year on just propping...ummm sorry I dont believe it or I am just out of the loop.I do not beleive props can make that kind of money in low-mid sized games online.Sure B&M props working top tier games and maybe higher online games but those numbers just seem way out of whack.I'm talking about yearly income not prorated bs based on a 2,3 even 6 month run as a prop. I think some props and prop managers like to throw around big numbers but the reality is short of that... I could be wrong.

I like being my own boss.I play high enuff to grind games out without stressing over daily or weekly results.Monthly yes I stress.

You can make $100 a day playing 4 $1-2 LHE tables.

Of course game conditions are always changing and may not stay as good as they currently are.

It's too bad many B&M charge such heavy rake for games up to $10-20..over last 30 years.You can make 40K in B&M playing 10-20 and 15-30 being game selective or you can play multi small games online.

This is a low stress way to make 30-40k online playing muti small games,mtt's etc.

For me real money $60k-100K will be made playing bigbet poker,higher ring games in B&M(Calif best)or jumping up and playing multiple tables of full or short $5-10,$10-20 and up games online.

Right now I'm just on auto-pilot..

[goodguy_1]

RussG from RGP makes great posts and crappy posts.But most of his posts on the real nature of B&M poker are right on the money.I played B&M for almost 4 years and I have followed what he writes ..yes alot of it is crap but some of it is very accurate.

Know Thy Enemy "The Casino" (http://www.recpoker.com/article.php?gID=1&ID=269850)

Hero's of Poker (http://www.recpoker.com/article.php?gID=1&ID=269858)

The Number "1" Reason to not go Professional (http://www.recpoker.com/article.php?gID=1&ID=269867)


Real Poker GCA (http://www.recpoker.com/article.php?gID=1&ID=269854)

ps I hope I dont get in trouble for crossposting from RGP and secondly I dont agree with most of the superflous political bs he puts in his posts..but more often than not he is right on with the FACTS about media manipulation,tourney "stars",and rape and pilaging of B&M poker.I know this is the Internet Forum and perhaps this should be psoted elsewhere but..it's just good reading for wannabe pro's B&M or Internet.

[n1stunnor]

I was very suprised to hear from some posters on here that they were making $60K a year on just propping...ummm sorry I dont believe it or I am just out of the loop


I know a couple props who consistently make 2-3k a week from prop pay.

[goodguy_1]

N1:
I knoiw you from California
You are saying some online props that play low/mid limit are making $2-3K a week??
uh ok ??

I'm not talking about propping in bay area big games..online games..

xxxxxx


They did this for the last year or last month big difference?

You mean they have made 2k-3k just of late or they have made $125K propping this year or they make 2k-3K every week??

where?

what limits?

[goodguy_1]

maybe I need to investigate this a little better? heh I ..guess I am out of the loop.I will have to do some work on this.PM's will be flyin in next day or so /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[n1stunnor]

You are saying some online props that play low/mid limit are making $2-3K a week??

Anywhere from 2/4 to 10/20,mainly 5/10 and 10/20.


I'm not talking about propping in bay area big games..online games..

Yes,online games.

They did this for the last year or last month big difference?

Not to sure on that..1 i know has been making that much for atleast the last 5 months.


You mean they have made 2k-3k just of late or they have made $125K propping this year or they make 2k-3K every week??

2-3k a week for the last 5 months i know for sure.


where?

Hmm...Can't really say..might get somebody in trouble.1 of the "big 4".

[goodguy_1]

makes sense definetly at $10-20+...this guy is obviously a very good player.You also need a decent BR to prop short $10-20 games.
Thanx for the reply N1..didnt think you would reply.

I would guess UB or Party.

[Inthacup]

Hmm...Can't really say..might get somebody in trouble.1 of the "big 4".

Well, I don't think I'll get anyone in trouble. I don't prop for anyone, so I have no loyalties to keep in this regard. I'd think UB is your best bet for propping. It's not advertised on their website or anything, but I hear they still take props.

Party used to have props but I haven't heard of any new recruits there for some time(why would they need them?). Not sure about Paradise, so I'm gonna say he's probably talking about UB.

I also know that UB will have no problem letting you open a new account if you do sign up as a prop.

Cup

[Cyndie]

The record for the two props i know was$2500 to $2800 per week...and they were pretty crazy weeks, but I routinely goe $1000 per week there, but the games are quite tough 3/6 and above...or were. The props mentioned were routinely playing 15/30 multiple tables...I was working at one large site that paid $15 per hour for up to 56 hours, but that has been reduced to 28 hours.

BUT that was just for one site! I used to prop at both but got tired of the unnecessarily strict rules and regulations, so, I designed a different program...see response to Lori's post.

Neither of those sites were hiring the last I heard...from the prop manager of one, and general knowledge about the second.

The stud games at the first site are beatable, because I have cleared some bonuses there recently, but party/empire games are much more reliable and more choice.

[sumdumguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Nearly a year of you being on the forums, and it is still impossible to get you to name sites when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'll try once.

[/ QUOTE ]
You might have to try more than once!

I've read three unadvertised online propping agreements:
1. One of Cyndie's programs;
2. One of the 'big 4'; and,
3. One from some no name going nowhere site that may never get to Pokerpulse.

None of them permit props to publicly disclose their employment, nor acknowledge that the site has a prop program. It would be logical that a prop program manager has similar restrictions.


[ QUOTE ]
Where can you prop with no boss?

[/ QUOTE ]
The 'Boss' hardly ever says a word to me.


[ QUOTE ]
Where can you prop and choose your own game and times?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm feeling a little tired tonight and want to just relax a bit. Tonight, I want to sit beside and learn from my buddy as he puts in his scheduled prop shift at one of the big4, and reread parts of supersystem before sleep, so I just skipped work tonight. I don't report to anyone. I just don't show up if I don't feel like playing.

[ QUOTE ]
Where can you prop in a game with more than six players without starting that game?

[/ QUOTE ]
The most common request the 'Boss' sends me: Please, try a little harder to not leave the full games.
The second most common request I receive: Please try to help out with one of the ring games [already 7 handed and quite live].

The only issue I have with my 'boss' is that he asks me to fill in games that are practically full anyways. I was looking forward to propping as an opportunity to have my shorthanded and heads up education subsidized. But, I can't exactly say no to the extra money.

But that's just me. I imagine that most people wouldn't mind propping full games that routinely see UTG+1 call the UTG raiser, holding Q3 off.

[CrackerZack]

Although I like the info provided, this seems like an odd first post.

Can you provide more info about propping for the big 4? Hours, levels, how you're paid?

Not prying, geniunely curious, unlikely interested.

Thanks.
Zack

[Lori]

3. One from some no name going nowhere site that may never get to Pokerpulse.

Yes I think their 'destiny' is sealed.

(If anyone here ever joins that site, I shall call at their home on my next outing to the KGC hut and force them to be my negotiator. )
If you thought Pro Poker were scumbags, you wait 'till you see this lot.

Lori

[Cyndie]

lol, think about the hassle for saying anything and you will probably realize a long timer got an anonymous name for that post...I didn't ask him to, but I do know who he is...the only slight corrections are some recent requirements to *Sit* at a vacant table to start new games even if the game you are in isn't full...so technically two tables, but you are expected to stay in the full game and sit out if needed while the new game starts.

None of the big four are hiring...but

Party pays $15 per hour and expects you to be in two tables most of the time and to leave a full table if not at a second that is short. They limit to 28 hours per week, and are looking to develop non holdem games.

UB has the *best* payment tracking system on the net! They tell you after every table how much you earned...it is at least 100% rake return. They give fantastic bonuses for stud and stud 8 and require 16 scheduled hours per week of those games...requiring head up play...you are only paid if you are one of the first 6 players in a game.

Many player have earned four figure prop pay and lost it all at the table...No, not me...at least not more than once, lol...bad week.

The sites generally require 3/6, but 2/4 is ok at UB.

I know nothing about Paradise, and to my knowledge Stars has no prop program.

Payment goes right into your account within a day or two of the end of the cycle.

[Cyndie]

Not my favorite site for management either, but the props are still given a lot of slack for no hour requirements...and the pay has been coming...so please don't be too harsh...paying is the thing they are very best at.

If you like plo or plo8 the site has some good games...I expect to see more higher limit games going now the jackpot is higher...and I collect no money for managing props at that site...but can still feel comfortable that you will not lose money if you play there.

[Lori]

Credit where due, thanks for the post.

Lori

[Cyndie]

OOOOH Lori...when we are talking some unnamed site...If you were talking about one that is setting up a prop program *please* contact me...I will not try to direct you to anything where I profit, but ProPoker is setting up skins and a prop program...and you might want to know who they are...I know this information first hand!

I have already told Mike a couple weeks ago.

[Cyndie]

Lol, all rooms *need* props, but most have them...the big four aren't hiring, and the second tier has some prop programs...Golden Palace has one that is an actual prop program...I am trying to get them to go with a program that is more player friendly like ours, but in the meantime I have a "semi-prop" program through my own skin that is a good deal for those of you who can work graveyard some..."semi" pay is for all limit holdem if the graveyard conditions are met.

Best part about it is that it is open and doesn't have to be whispered in corners, lol...and there are no rules aobut leaving good games or starting new games or bosses or shifts...only real rules and they apply to the whole site...no calling the fish names!!!!! EVER!!!!

One site that is weak may still accept props, but they do have some good games (especially Omaha and Stud) and great promotions for which props are eligible.

One site has a program through us that is better than any you can get from the site itself...but those two sites are not doing well. You all noticed an improvement when we showed up, lol...but they aren't paying the way we thought, but it is still better than what you could get...let me know if you are interested. I do not get paid for managing the sites...but might make some money from referrals.

My favorite site of all accepts some players for 2/4 holdem, but the software is old fashioned. $7.50 per hour not all hours have games.

One site pays pretty well, but management doesn't really buy into our prop program where we have a couple hundred props who come when needed, and are on call when things get slow...they prefer props that show up on schedule.

One site is looking for the multi site prop and semi prop program and they will be opening soon.

Our own software, which is in the process of being sold to a casino, will have some prop and semi prop opportunities, and if you have contacts with management at any of the smaller sites...let me know.

One that we do not work with is associated with the people from ProPoker. However, the association was not disclosed.

[Lori]

The site I am referring to is Destiny poker.

Their Prop program looks rather too good to be true, and therefore almost certainly is.

When I was on my spam rounds a few days ago, I came across a rather spammy looking site or two.

Im investigating a couple, but this one looks like it has to be the korean bot family.

DestinyPoker.com is accepting players to participate in launching our new site.
Join now and let’s get the games started!

Prop Program Perks

Check out our flexible rules and see how advantageous it is to help prop our games.

You receive:

35% deposit bonus on first deposit while working as a prop for our site.* Depending upon player status, additional deposit bonuses may be offered to our props.
Receive $50.00 for every 100 raked hands played (valid from November 24th until December 7th).* (Funds are placed in pending account, see below*)
Refer a friend program has your friends earn money for you as they play. Every time they participate in 100 raked hands, you get $5.00. You also reap the rewards of any props they bring on ($2.00 made on each of them when they participate in 100 raked hands). As an added bonus, when your signed up prop completes their first 500 raked hands, you get $50.00.*
Every hour, a random prop that is playing on the system is chosen for an instant cash prize equal to the upper limit on the table they are sitting at. (coming soon)
Once you participate in 1000 raked hands, you join our VIP Prop program which has special deals up and above those mentioned (such as free entry into tournaments).
*All bonus funds are placed in the “pending” account on cashier and released into your available account at a rate of $10 per 100 raked hands played on the $1/2 limits or higher.

Requirements:
Play a minimum of 300 raked hands per week (Monday thru Saturday) to retain bonuses on account. (Funds from pending acct. may not be retained if the minimum requirement is not met.)
Must play $1/$2 or higher.
Play a minimum of 1 hour per session.
Greet new players by chat.
If head-up and trying to start a game, props will not be required to play but may wait for a third player if desired.
Props may play mostly where they choose. If an abundance of props are at one table, WPC management may require that you move to another designated table but this movement will be a minimum.
Props are treated like regular players for bonuses, promotions and rake contributions.
Communication will be done by MSN Messenger and thus when the prop shows up to play; props will log onto the Messenger and keep the communication line open during play.
www.DestinyPoker.com (http://www.DestinyPoker.com) is powered by WPC.

TO SIGN UP AS A PROP:
Create a real money account at www.DestinyPoker.com. (http://www.DestinyPoker.com.)
Create an MSN messenger account if you do not already have one.
Email props@worldpokercentral.com
A. State that you would like entry as a prop for DestinyPoker.
B. Give us your User Id that you created at DestinyPoker.
C. Give us the email address that you use for your MSN messenger.
You will be contacted shortly thereafter.
DestinyPoker Management

All content on this webmail
Copyright © DestinyPoker.com
All rights reserved.

I got that mail after signing up at World Poker Central, a rather dodgy looking establishment.

So who noticed the catch?

*All bonus funds are placed in the “pending” account on cashier and released into your available account at a rate of $10 per 100 raked hands played on the $1/2 limits or higher.

Receive $50.00 for every 100 raked hands played (valid from November 24th until December 7th).* (Funds are placed in pending account, see below*)

And you thought new promo bux were bad?

Lori

[Cyndie]

I wouldn't prop there and ever expect to win. The promo bux imitation isn't a problem since they are just holding your money until you have earned it...but the raked hands are only counted when you enter the pot.

[Lori]

I wouldn't prop there and ever expect to win

Might be the first time ever that we have agreed.

Lori

[Cyndie]

[jek187]

Although once again when you don't name the names of sites that you're talking about, your post is virtually useless. This site in particular though:

[ QUOTE ]
One that we do not work with is associated with the people from ProPoker. However, the association was not disclosed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Needs to be identified. What site is associated with Pro Poker?

Edit: I now see that there has been more discussion about this, and that the site is Destiny Poker and other skins from the same source. No biggy, as this is info that's important enough to repeat. Cyndie, I suggest you start a thread about this detailing why you think they're the ProPoker people.

[Cyndie]

I guess your post on where you prop was useless too, jek? If you want to go against the desires of sites for no reason...you are welcome to.

As far as ProPoker, I have said all I am going to say...except to repeat the same information.

I do not believe it is for the good of poker to spend a lot of time discussing cheating in public. It doesn't look good for new players to get all sorts of scare stories. There is enough history here, and everyone who checks out the site comes with the same story...and finds out right away that it is a good place to avoid.

Poker players are smart enough to figure it out.

[Lori]

I do not believe it is for the good of poker to spend a lot of time discussing cheating in public. It doesn't look good for new players to get all sorts of scare stories.

Cyndie, as you will have worked out through our PM exchange, I really don't have time for all this anymore after the Granny comment.

However, that does not mean I can let this one go.

Let me get this straight.

You believe it is for the good of poker to let people know that there is a site out there cheating players, and THEN to not tell them who it is.

I'll tell you what is good for poker. Yes TELL you, because discussing with you is doomed to a long exchange that I cannot be bothered to participate in.

What is good for the newbies is for them to know that people like me are on top of issues like cheating.
I don't mean just me, there are probably 50-100 others on this forum alone who qualify.
The newbies want to be able to play in safety, and if the people they are asking about safety know about where to avoid, the newbies feel safer.

If, however they run into some mumbo jumbo about a site that someone who is known for being greedy won't name, even though they have proof that the site is cheating, I suspect the newbies will get a little edgy.

I'm sorry that I have once again had to reply to you, I would appreciate it if you gave me less cause to do so.

Lori

[jek187]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess your post on where you prop was useless too, jek?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between us, is that I'm not constantly siting unnamed sites in an effort to get people to PM me so I can spam them.

As for your other crap, read Lori's post, and obey.

[jek187]

I have a hard time believing that anyone who knew Granny (and Lori certainly did) didn't trust her. Unless Lori specifically communicated to you that she didn't trust Granny, you owe her a public, sincere appology.

Most likely, I think you're confused...Lori trusted Granny, she just doesn't trust YOU.

[Cyndie]

SHEESH... Lori didn't trust Granny Mae about ME...I pmmed Lori with details that I have email after email from Granny...She asked me to keep much of them in confidence, because we were working on common projects.

Granny knows I am not the person you keep on attacking...She and I are friends. I reintroduced her to some lost friends in time to mend some hard feelings just before she got sick this last time...She asked me for some help with some people looking for jobs.

I was telling Lori, that if she trusted Granny, she would trust me...cause Granny does!

I offered to show her a couple emails and was sure she would recognize Granny's style...asked her which ones she wanted.

The attacks you have mounted against me appall her. She apologized to me for being so harsh on me...but said she was checking to see whether I was telling the truth.

I didn't say Granny didn't trust Lori...I said Lori didn't trust Granny...

[Lori]

...I said Lori didn't trust Granny...

And I said in the PM's that you made me sick for even bringing Granny into this.

Flame me as much as you like, but don't bring someone into it who cannot speak for themselves.

Lori

[jek187]

[ QUOTE ]
don't bring someone into it who cannot speak for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be wonderful if she'd take your advice. Unfortunately, she's been told this repeatedly in the past, and will not listen. Just another bit of proof that she has no morals.

[thomastem]

Ok, Greta the sheep may tell Pilmont the goat that Joe Tall the Hyena is trustworthy. If Pilomont takes Greta's word for it and gets eaten then what?

The moral to the story is, never own a purse made out of a Crazed Phil family member.