Nasty people

[Al Schoonmaker]

Some of you know that much of the material for my column comes from this forum. My most recent column, "Nasty people," is now at cardplayer.com, and it was based largely on a thread here. That column quoted a post by Cero Zuccarello, and I've gotten a couple of emails about it.

One reader told me that he had read of a $3,200,000 judgement last July against a large LA area cardroom. He gave me the link, and I've read the news story. Most of the judgment was punitive damages because the cardroom had ample warning that the man who attacked another player could be dangerous. The jury punished the cardroom for not protecting the player when they had ample reason to believe that the attacker might act violently.

The attacker seemed MUCH less threatening than the man described by Cero. He was 71 years old, and his behavior did not sound remotely as bizarre. Cero described his nasty person as "borderline psychotic."

"Nasty people" was directed at players. I don't think we should be forced to choose between tolerating nastiness and leaving. Management should be forced to choose between ejecting nasty people and losing our business. It ended with this statement: "Let's all make sure management knows that they really must make that choice: Let them know we won't stay if they don't insist that everyone acts decently."

The huge award has made me think of writing, "Nasty People, Part II." It would be directed to cardroom managers, and it would warn them of the enormous risk they are taking by allowing people to act in nasty, threatening ways. If there is only one judgment, I probably won't write it. If there are several, I probably will write it. If you know of any other judgments against cardrooms for failing to protect players, I'd appreciate your sending me a PM or posting them here.

I must add that I will not mention your name without your permission, and I will not mention the name of the cardroom in the article. I'll say that anyone who wants to confirm specific information should email me.

One last point. If your cardroom allows people to act in ways that you regard as threatening, print this post and show it to them. If they email me, I will be delighted to refer them to the story about that huge judgment. No rational cardroom manager would ignore such an enormous risk.

Thank you,

Al

[FeliciaLee]

My reply to another post:

"Funny that you mention the Mirage. I guess every poker room has it's problems. The last time I played at the Mirage, I was sitting next to a grifter. He stole chips off of an elderly lady on his right. Both myself and a young, 20-something guy saw him. The 20-something guy busted him before I could say anything. The dealer refused to do anything. Suddenly, the grifter started yelling at the kid, telling him to "Mind his own business, or else..."

I would not let him continue, and told him that I'd also seem him stealing. He said, "Shut up and mind your own business." The dealer still refused to do anything. We called the floor. Suddenly, the grifter changed his whole story and said his stealing was an accident.

The floorman rolled his eyes and told the grifter to pay the lady back. That's it. Both the kid and I tried to tell the floorman about his comments, but the grifter kept insisting it was all an accident, and the elderly woman said that if he'd accidentally stolen her money, it was okay with her (???).

After the floorman left, the grifter sneered at us, "See, I can do whatever I want here. I told you to just mind your own business!"

I cashed out and told the poker room manager. She went over to talk to the grifter and the floorman. She agreed that it was all just a big accident, and that the young man and I should have simply stayed out of it.

I've never played at the Mirage since.

On other occasions, I've run into people who have had similar incidents at the Mirage. One told me that the table caught a player cheating in a tourney, and when the plot was exposed, this same manager said she "Didn't want to cause anymore trouble than had already been caused," and let it go.

A dealer told me that a player hit her at the Mirage, and the same cardroom manager refused to do anything about it.

Abuse in cardrooms happens a lot out here, Greg. Cardrooms tolerate it, so there is no deterrent for the abuse to stop. It is not like Atlantic City or Foxwoods. Things seem to be changing slowly, but I still hear about horrid abuse every day. "
----------------------------------------------
Some of my posts on the Riverside in Laughlin, NV:

"During the tournament, which mirrored the last one (with the yelling and dictating), a player in the one seat playing stud suddenly looked at the dealer in disbelief that he had lost a hand. When the dealer looked at him, to take back his cards, the player suddenly reared back and punched the dealer full in the face. The dealer immediately called for security, in shock. Security was NOT called. Both the floorman and the poker room manager just lifted the guy up by his armpits and told him that poker players are not allowed to punch dealers, and to leave the room. They escorted him to the exit, and that was the last we saw. Not only was security NOT called, nor were the police. They didn't even take down this guys name, nor did they eject him from the rest of the casino. NICE."

"On my right was a drunk. I mean a stinking, alcoholic drunk. These guys are not to be pitied or coddled in the poker room. He was mean. Before I sat down, he had threatened to stab another player. Yes, stab. No, the Riverside did nothing. Oh, yes they did, sorry.
They said in a very patronizing tone, "Now come on guys, let's be nice and play poker." End of story. He boasted that he had been kicked out of the Riverside 17 or 18 times in the past, but they kept letting him come back, no matter what he did in the room. I believe this. The Riverside is disgusting. He finally busted out, thank God. I was looking for the so-called knife, but never saw it. I guess I truly am putting my life into my own hands, playing at this
place."

"Once I was playing in a hold'em game. The table across from us was a very rocking Stud game. There was lots of cursing and dealer/player abuse going on. Once, I heard the floorman called over to that table, then heard him say, 'Sir, please do not call the dealer an [censored].'"

Please feel free to write me, Dr. Al, for any additional information. It is time for abuse in cardrooms to be a thing of the past!

My Mom still has scars on her arms where she was burned with cigarettes, from long ago, when cardrooms tolerated any type of behavior. No dealer should be going into retirement with memories of being burned by losing players, being spit on, drinks thrown in their face, paper cuts by flung cards, or hit upside the head by abusive players. My Mom, along with thousands of other dealers, have all suffered this type of abuse. It is time to put it in the past and refuse to tolerate it anymore.

[felson]

When I was at the Mirage on Labor Day weekend, there was a father-son team cheating at my roommate's 3-6 table. I forget if the police was called, but security was called and the table was broken up.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
When I was at the Mirage on Labor Day weekend, there was a father-son team cheating at my roommate's 3-6 table. I forget if the police was called, but security was called and the table was broken up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you, Felson. That makes me feel MUCH better (not being sarcastic, I really do hope the Mirage is finally putting it's foot down).

[Batman]

Mason said in his Poker Essays III that casinos and players police the game. And that casinos really try to prevent and catch cheating, because once a casino develops a cheating reputation, their business becomes doomed.
I'm not sure if this is true. Maybe many casinos think if players cheat, it's not coming out of the casinos pockets.

Mason has played professional poker decades. It is almost certain that he encountered some nasty and abusive players at his table. Can Mason tell us how he deals with these players, and what would he do if the floor staff didn't care to help?

[Zeno]

Dr. Schoonmaker,

I wholeheartedly support your position on this and hope you continue to pursue dealing with this pervasive problem. In a game that involves money and emotions to such an extent we will always have some abuse and nastiness but it is out of control. I am firmly of the opinion that many people that play poker do not have the psychological or emotional stability to play the game and that this underlying instability flares up in the card rooms, sometimes in physical violence, but most often verbally.

I have played extensively in local casinos in my area, many times in Vegas and Reno, in Washington state casinos, in Laughlin, Nevada, and once at the Commerce and at Casino Arizona, and in my opinion abusive behavior is epidemic in the poker world. My most recent experience was at Casino Arizona where a player continually abused a dealer for bringing in runner, runner low cards to counterfeit his low in an Omaha 8 game. I will spare the details; we have all heard them so many times before. I used to interject and ask players to be civil and can we just get on with the game and play poker in a friendly manner. This usually just adds me as an additional target of the nasty players. Going to management has usually been a waste of time, but perhaps I should have been more forceful in lodging complaints.

The nasty people sap the energy, joy, excitement, competitive spirit, and all the other positive attributes of poker right out of the game. Indeed, they destroy the game in the same manner they are destroying themselves. I play poker much less frequently than I use to for various reasons, but at the top of the list is the degeneracy of the game itself as played in the majority of the card rooms across the country. I have better uses for my time.

I sincerely hope that you can have some positive influence to curb this epidemic pattern of abuse that pervades almost all card rooms. Good Luck.

-Zeno

[Al Schoonmaker]

Zeno,
Thank you for your carefully written post. As a recreational player, I take nastiness very, very seriously. I want to enjoy my time at the table and have the others enjoy their time. If poker isn't fun, why play? The money is certainly not significant to most of us.
I reluctantly agree with your remark about an epidemic of nastiness, and there is NO reason for it.
Poker is a GAME, a great game, but still just a game. We should not play it for more money than we can afford to lose, financially or psychologically. When people become abusive, they destroy everyone's enjoyment.
Abusing dealers is even worse than abusing players. You and I can retaliate. The dealer who does so can lose his job.
Will I have a positive influence? I doubt it. I have much more confidence in the ability of Linda Johnson and Jan Fisher. As very active members of the Tournament Directors Assn, they are working to bring in a code of conduct. As tournaments become better, players will follow suit, or at least I hope they will. On Carplayer Cruises Jan and Linda set an example of zero tolerance policies that will hopefully be copied by others.
But nastiness is not something to leave to writers and other "authorities." We can all gain by DEMANDING that people behave properly or leave. And,if management won't back us, we should take our business to places with higher standards.
Thanks again for your post.
Regards,
Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

Felicia,
I am shocked by your story. I know Donna Harris, Mirage's poker room manager. In fact, she edited my book. I know she would not tolerate such nonsense.
If you or others have such experiences, please bring them directly to her attention. The Mirage is one of the biggest and best rooms in Las Vegas, and neither she nor anyone I respect wants its standards and reputation to be lowered.
Regards,
Al

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Felicia:

I know all the management in The Mirage Poker Room quite well, and Donna Harris, Director of Poker Operations, is not only a close friend but one of our authors. They strive to run a first class room, and in my opinion have succeeded in achieving this goal.

However, no poker room can stop certain undesirables from coming in and playing. But I do know that once a problem is spotted, neither Donna nor any of her staff will tolerate it. They do have the best interests of the players in mind, and Donna strongly believes that a well run poker room in all aspects benefits everyone involved, and this includes the players, the employees of the poker room, and the casino/hotel where the room is located.

Now with that being said I wasn't present for the particular incident that you describe, but I suggest that the next time you're in town that you vist The Mirage Poker Room again and spend a few minutes with Donna Harris. I think your perceptions will change.

I do want to comment however on the dealer claiming to have been hit by a player and management ignoring it. Right at the moment, because of all the poker on TV, etc., poker dealers are in great demand. Don't you think that if a poker dealer was hit by a player and management refused to do anything about it that (1) The dealer would leave and find another job; (2) The casino would be sued and would be libel for a pretty good chunk of money; (3) If this type of event happened once it would happen all the time and no one would play at that cardroom and it would go out of business?

One characteristic of people who are somewhat stressed, sometimes by their job and sometimes by other issues which they bring to their job, is that they release pressure by saying things that they shouldn't, and these comments sometimes are completely rediculous. I can assure you totally that any player who hits any Mirage Poker Room employee will not be tolerated.

Best wishes,
Mason

[CrisBrown]

Hi Al,

Great topic. This happens online also ... in fact it may happen even more there because people have the comfortable sense of anonymity that the Internet provides. I can't even begin to count how many times I've been asked if I do or will perform various sex acts, and so on, and of course the sometimes steady patter of sexist "humor" when a woman is at the table.

Admittedly, that's not the same as a physical assault. But as a woman, I can tell you that when three or four men at a table start making really ugly, sexist comments, it does feel threatening. Yes, all I have to do is turn off chat, but then I can't converse with the (very many!) polite players I meet.

Most of the better online cardrooms have rules about such matters and will take action if you complain. So again, I think it's important to all of us not to tolerate this kind of foolishness.

Cris

[Al Schoonmaker]

Cris,

This thread and the article that started it have been both astonishing and appalling. I had no idea of how frequently people act intolerably, and it never crossed my mind that they did it online.

I am actually embarrassed by my naivite. I should have known better, but politeness is such a natural part of my life that I have naive expectations.

Several years ago I made a nasty remark to a dealer. She had made a serious mistake, but my remark was out of line and not at all the way I normally act. About twenty minutes later she was sitting at an empty table, and I walked over and apologized. She was startled, almost embarrassed by my apology. Apparently, she wasn't used to apologies, even when they were only proper action.

That is just plain terrible. Most of us make and receive apologies regularly. They should be the norm, not the exception.

Thanks for your post.

Al

[PokerFish]

This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I dealt poker for many years in Las Vegas and on the tournament trail. I was abused more often that I care to remember and seldom backed by management. Finally, it drove me from that part of the business. I am finding it increasingly evident that the good dealers don't want to deal anymore in the cardrooms that still allow abuse and that is partly why the tournament trail dealers are not as good as they once were. More abuse and less money, and the players cry. On Card Player Cruises, we have a policy of no abuse and we stick to it strictly. Seldom do we have a problem but when we do, we deal with it right away. We never have a second problem with the same customer, never. It works if you enforce no abuse. It truly does. Some management feels that they don't want to run off players. What I believe is happening is that the good customers are the ones being run off. I know that there are places I won't play anymore as I can't stand the war zone. I play in the places where it is fun... they do still exist. If you are playing where there is a behavior problem, rather than getting mad, talk to the management about it. See what they say. Then, see if they react. If they don't, use your feet to vote and take your business elsewhere. While a cardroom is not a house of worship, it is a gathering place for adults who want to have a good time and relax. While occasional outbursts are to be expected, there is a line that should never be crossed. Reward, with your business, the cardrooms that enforce that line.

With the New Year approaching, let's all, once again, try to have more respect for those around us. Even when we are hot and stuck.

[Clarkmeister]

Mason, I respectfully disagree with your sentiment here.

"Hi Felicia:

I know all the management in The Mirage Poker Room quite well, and Donna Harris, Director of Poker Operations, is not only a close friend but one of our authors."

And I think this not only taints your view, it also in all likelihood means you rarely see the side of Mirage management that many others see. The initial poster is far from alone in his/her observations.

"They strive to run a first class room, and in my opinion have succeeded in achieving this goal."

I strongly disagree. While there is good and bad in every room, and I term many of the Mirage room employees "friends", this is not run as a first class room. It is not my intention to write an essay on the many flaws in the way the Mirage is run, but it is my opinion that the Mirage is a poorly run room, and that stems mostly from the shift managers. Ultimately, Donna is responsible for them. The room is, in my opinion, run worse than almost every other large room I have visited in California and Arizona. I played there nearly every day for well over a year. I still play there 2-5x a month. I have no reason to lie, especially since I am quite sure that several people in that room know that I post under this handle.

"However, no poker room can stop certain undesirables from coming in and playing. But I do know that once a problem is spotted, neither Donna nor any of her staff will tolerate it. They do have the best interests of the players in mind, and Donna strongly believes that a well run poker room in all aspects benefits everyone involved, and this includes the players, the employees of the poker room, and the casino/hotel where the room is located."

That may be her intention, but I am telling you that the incidents described earlier in this thread are not at all rare. I saw a similar incident myself not more than 3 weeks ago at the 20-40. It was handled in a similarly unsatisfactory manner.

"Now with that being said I wasn't present for the particular incident that you describe, but I suggest that the next time you're in town that you vist The Mirage Poker Room again and spend a few minutes with Donna Harris. I think your perceptions will change."

Again, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about Donna herself based on my limited interaction with her. I can only tell you that the initial poster is not voicing a unique complaint.

Regards,

Clark

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
"Hi Felicia:

I know all the management in The Mirage Poker Room quite well, and Donna Harris, Director of Poker Operations, is not only a close friend but one of our authors."

And I think this not only taints your view, it also in all likelihood means you rarely see the side of Mirage management that many others see. The initial poster is far from alone in his/her observations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, the name "Felicia" and the pic didn't give it away that I'm a woman? LOL /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In all seriousness though, since I posted about the Mirage (one post a few months ago, not long after it happened, then another post just a couple of weeks ago in reponse to Greg "Fossilman"), people have come out of the woodwork to tell me their own Mirage horror stories.

I get anonymous e-mails, and writers willing to leave their names. I have also run into quite a few people in live cardrooms. Some of them ask if I am the "Felicia" on 2+2 who posted about the Mirage. Then they tell me their horror story. Others have told me stories when we started discussing certain cardrooms and the subject came up.

It is amazing how people are finally starting to come out and tell the truth about some of the things they witness. This is not just at the Mirage, naturally, but everywhere. It seems like less and less people are willing to tolerate "old school" poker players who abuse dealers and other players. People are busting angleshooters and colluders. Players are pointing out marked cards at the table.

I think maybe once the players band together to do something about abuse, cardrooms will follow.

Thanks for your post, Clark!

[Clarkmeister]

I have pictures turned off in my viewer options. I should have figured from Felicia though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Felicia:

I have problems with your post. And it's not quite what you might think.

When it comnes to poker/Internet posting, I have been attacked more than anyone. I have read literally thousands of posts about myself that were totally untrue. But what's interesting is that most of the negative posters about me were copycats. People I never knew, or hardly knew, would join in on the attack once someone came up with something negative. I've read how I never tip, how I'm rude to everyone, how I have no friends, how I lived in a filthy studio apartment, how I only drove old junky beat up cars, how I run our business in a totally unethical manner, how I sell old out of print editions, how our authors at Two Plus Two would do anything to get off the yoke I put them in, how I only give good reviews to our books and give all non-Two Plus Two books bad reviews, how I flash my cards at the table, and the list goes on.

So what I'm saying is if you put a negative post up about a make believe cardroom my guess is that you would get some feedback from a few people telling you their even worse experiences. It's just the nature of the Internet.

Now with that being said, if you have a problem with The Mirage Poker Room I believe I can put you in touch with Donna Harris who is Director of Poker Operations where you can discuss the problem with her. And if there is a problem, I guarantee it will be fixed.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Batman]

Funny, i read in Sklansky's PGL about how he is actually happy when a player verbally abuses a dealer, and he tells us the logical reasons why he feels this way. But can one of you publish some constructive essay about the best thing good players should do especially if the floormen don't take action?

[Batman]

[ QUOTE ]
Felicia:

I have problems with your post. And it's not quite what you might think.

When it comnes to poker/Internet posting, I have been attacked more than anyone. I have read literally thousands of posts about myself that were totally untrue. But what's interesting is that most of the negative posters about me were copycats. People I never knew, or hardly knew, would join in on the attack once someone came up with something negative. I've read how I never tip, how I'm rude to everyone, how I have no friends, how I lived in a filthy studio apartment, how I only drove old junky beat up cars, how I run our business in a totally unethical manner, how I sell old out of print editions, how our authors at Two Plus Two would do anything to get off the yoke I put them in, how I only give good reviews to our books and give all non-Two Plus Two books bad reviews, how I flash my cards at the table, and the list goes on.

So what I'm saying is if you put a negative post up about a make believe cardroom my guess is that you would get some feedback from a few people telling you their even worse experiences. It's just the nature of the Internet.

Now with that being said, if you have a problem with The Mirage Poker Room I believe I can put you in touch with Donna Harris who is Director of Poker Operations where you can discuss the problem with her. And if there is a problem, I guarantee it will be fixed.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Its amazing how so many people have a beef with you. Maybe some readers werent able to process poker information and they lost and became bitter about it.

I've been winning since I've read 2+2 books so I'm not mad at you.

best wishes,
Batman

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
And I think this not only taints your view, it also in all likelihood means you rarely see the side of Mirage management that many others see. The initial poster is far from alone in his/her observations.


[/ QUOTE ]

Comon Clark:

That statement just isn't true. Not only was I there on opening day at The Mirage, but I also played a great deal at The Golden Nuggett before there was a Mirage. And as for major cardrooms in Las Vegas, I played much poker at The Hilton, The Horseshoe, Caesars, Ballys, and the Stardust when all of these rooms were major centers of poker action. If you read my Poker Essays books you will see many articles criticizing the way some cardrooms were run, and all poker room managers who know me will tell you that I am not shy about letting them know where I think they need improvement, and this includes a few tournament directors as well.

In fact, I believe that I have been a major force in encouraging cardrooms to run their operations better nationwide, and to treat their customers better.

Also, for what its worth, I began to play poker in the old days of Gardena where players were simply brutalized by cardroom management. So I do know what a poorly run cardroom is like.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Batman:

You need to read my Poker Essays books. There are a number of essays that address this issue. "Cardrooms and the Pros" in the first Poker Essays book comes to mind.

Best wishes,
Mason

[mosch]

Because of you and your damnable publications I find myself with all sorts of problems. You know how many miles I've driven with my extra trips to the card room and the bank, because of your books? You truly are a menace to the environment and a terrible person! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Drunk Bob]

Ejected from cardroom means a little more when you're in the middle of the ocean,then you have to deal with real sharks!

[Clarkmeister]

Mason,

I don't think it is a stretch to think that you and your wife are treated better and see a different side of the Mirage poker room because of your relationship with Donna.

Regards,

Clark

[Clarkmeister]

"So what I'm saying is if you put a negative post up about a make believe cardroom my guess is that you would get some feedback from a few people telling you their even worse experiences. It's just the nature of the Internet"

Even if we ignore the unnamed people who emailed Felicia, this thread has 3 respected posters (Felicia, Fossilman and myself) whose have had negative experiences of a similar nature at the Mirage. None of us have any personal axe to grind, either.


"Now with that being said, if you have a problem with The Mirage Poker Room I believe I can put you in touch with Donna Harris who is Director of Poker Operations where you can discuss the problem with her. And if there is a problem, I guarantee it will be fixed."

Felicia talked with the manager on duty the evening of her incident. She was rebuffed and basically told to butt out. Her experience is entirely consistant with how I have seen the Mirage Shift Managers deal with similar issues and I am not alone in this observation.

I really don't want to get into a long debate about the merits of the Mirage management. I do, however, wish you would respect that others may have had different expereinces than you have.

Regards,

Clark

[FeliciaLee]

I respectfully wish to withdraw from this thread. I knew it was going to be hard to maintain a detached, objective nature in this matter from the start.

Clark, I thank you dearly for your imput. Fossil, however, had nothing to do with the original thread, as it was about a totally different subject, with him saying, "Why don't you try the Mirage?" That is when I posted my Mirage story.

The secondhand stories I tried not to elaborate. I wanted to keep them close to one-liners, with no detail.

The story of the grifter truly happened. I was there. That is why I felt more comfortable elaborating about it.

I stand by the things I have seen. Whether it is a grifter at the Mirage, a dealer getting punched by a drunk at the Riverside, or any other abuse I've witnessed. My Mom was a dealer for ten years. Many of those years were in Vegas, and filled with abusive incidents.

Maybe this thread is just too close to me, emotionally. So I am respectfully asking to withdraw. Dr. Al may use any of my firsthand accounts for his research.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi mosch:

Thanks for the comments.

A lot of people won't believe this, but I have never published a book for the sole intention of making money. Our idea was to produce something very good and the profits would take care of themselves. And because of that, I have never shied away from criticizing how cardrooms are run, and I believe the impact has been very positive.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

If you are unhappy with the way the shift managers have teated you, you should, in my opinion, go talk to their boss and have a talk with her.

I wasn't there for these rebuffs so I don't want to comment on them specifically. But sometimes during disputes in an effort to get the game going again, which is what most everyone wants, the shift manager (or floorperson handling the problem) will make decisions quickly. That's why at a later taime you should talk to them or their superior in private. You'll be surprised as to how much you can sometimes accomplish by doing this.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

I'm treated better everywhere. That's just the way it is when you are as successful as I have been doing what I do.

But it wasn't always this way. I remember when I was looked upon with much suspicion by most cardroom managers who thought that a $10-$20 player had no business being critical of them, and this includes being barred for several months in the late 1980s from The Las Vegas Hilton poker room because I told them that they ran the "Worse cardroom ever." (By the way they closed about a year later after they lost all their business. See "The Collapse of Two Cardrooms" in my book Poker Essays.)

Best wishes,
Mason

[Don Olney]

I am new here, and have started readingthis thread.
Dealer abuse is growing from what I see from my seat.
I also have read that some think poker rooms can not keep the grifters from playing untill something happens.
I thought Casinos had the right to ask anyone not to gamble at the casino, at anytime.
Am I wrong about this

[andyfox]

Good thread.

Your efforts to try to make the cardrooms plesanter places are admirable.

But probably doomed to failure.

Most people lose. And most people who lose go on tilt. Some of them start to play badly or wildly. Some of them get nasty. (Most do both.) Given that many people who play cards regularly do so because they are anti-social to begin with or can't get along in "regular" jobs anyway, the combination of factors makes it a certainly that nastiness will be a part of poker no matter what we do.

Now this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to minimize it. I'm an introverted, quiet person, but I make a big stink both to the players involved and to the cardroom personnel when I think the worst offenders (such as Archie, Iris, and Stefan, about whom I have posted) go over the line.

But the cardrooms will not do anything. They'll put in a 20 minute rule and they'll ban somebody for 24 hours and if they kick him out "permanently" he goes down the road for a few months and ends up back where he started after that. Some time back, Lee Jones took me to task for not being more proactive in doing things to help. Frankly, I don't want to have to run the cardroom. I want to go and have a good time. I expect them to ensure that the experience is a good one for me. I don't want to have to write a letter or constantly get up to consult with a floorperson about things.

Lots of the abuse I see also has a racial overtone to it. A player will make fun of the way an Asian dealer speaks and the Asian dealers at Commerce definitely get abused, by both Asians and non-Asians alike, but mostly by non-Asians, more than non-Asian dealers.

Maybe Mason, because of who he is and his relationship to the big cheese at the Mirage can get something done, but the rest of us are usually tilting at windmills. Archie plays 8 hours a day, paying probably an average of $19/hour in collections, and then he goes and plays in the Chinese section for big $ after his shift is over. And he loses. Bigtime. The casino simply is not going to give up his dollars, either that they put into their pockets, or that they perceive their other customers want to keep in theirs.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Andy,

You wrote: "Your efforts to try to make the cardrooms plesanter places are admirable. But probably doomed to failure."

The column in the current issue of "Card Player" and available at cardplayer.com said we should DEMAND that management do its job or suffer the consequences, loss of our business. You and I spend much more money in rakes and tokes than we do on almost anything else. We would not tolerate nastiness at Macy's or a gas station, and there is no reason for us to tolerate it in poker rooms that NEED our business.

This thread goes much further. Read my post that started it. It says that I had just learned that management risks MUCH more serious consequences than losing the business of a few people. It risks losing MILLIONS of dollars. I don't care how good a customer is; he is not worth that risk.

In the brief time since I started this thread I have had private conversations with a few people. If I were part of the legal department at the casinos they mentioned, I would call an emergency meeting of all the floor people and say, "You are risking the survival of this casino and your own jobs. And, if you are on duty when an action occurs that destroys us, you will never work in this business again."

Forgive me for putting it so forcefully, but that is the risk that any casino takes when it allows people who appear menacing to continue to play. The casino mentioned lost $3.2 million because a 71 year old man hit a player. How much would the judgment be if an obviously drunk and abusive 30 year old pulls out a gun and kills a few people?

Nearly all of that judgment was not against the man who did the hitting. It was against the casino because it had clear warning that the man was potentially dangerous. The law is quite clear. If you know or can reasonably infer that someone is dangerous, you MUST protect your customers or pay damages. $2,750,000 of that award was for punitive damanges for precisely that reason. That precedent will certainly be cited the next time someone gets hurt.

Please do not think I am threatening casinos. I am not going to sue anyone. I am just trying to let casinos know the terrible risks they are taking.

I love poker and poker rooms. Poker is a central part of my life. Nearly all of my friends are players. I don't want casinos to get destroyed because they foolishly allow menacing people to ruin the game for my friends and myself.

Regards,

Al

[andyfox]

I don't spend more on rakes and tokes than anything else, but I've certainly spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on them over the years; my best guesstimate is over $500,000. But it is precisely because of those rakes and tokes that the casinos don't do anything. They're shortsighted. And they're scummy. It's a bad combination.

Some will claim that they're businessman just like any other businessmen. Well I'm a businessman and I don't allow illegal bookmaking, loansharking, sales of stolen property, pimping, prostitution, and drug dealing in my business. Every casino or cardroom I've been in has always winked at these activities, both by their customers and by their employees. So they'll let somebody curse the dealer and then throw cards because, after all, what is this compared to that other stuff? And soon enough there will be physical violence, no doubt.

Many years ago a disgruntled loser fired shots into a Gardena cardroom. The cardrooms' response: take out the windows. There's absolutely no security in cardrooms, probably because management, in their shortsightedness, is afraid people will see security and be afraid there's a reason why there is security.

I imagine the cardrooms have insurance that covers them for "incidents," so I'm not sure they really risk losing millions of dollars. But of course if those incidents proliferate, their premiums will skyrocket.

I generally play 30-60 at Commerce. Each 30-60 table they keep going would earn them $1.4 million a year if it went 24 hours a day 7 days a week. That's the only thing management thinks of. If they kick me out because I'm abusive, they've risked 1/9 of their potential $1.4 mill. And given the club down the street a 1/9 head start on taking the $1.4 from them.

I have no doubt that one day someone will be shot in a cardroom. I have been at a table where one player threatened to blow another player away. I have been at a table where a house player slugged a floorman and the entire table was flipped over in the ensuing fracas.

My sense is that the kind of people that are attracted to gambling, both on the management side and the players, precludes a safe environment. There's a well-known player who plays at both the Bike and Commerce who is generally looked upon by both management and his fellow players as a psychopath. There is never a game that he is in that doesn't result in a problem. Once, during one of his numerous twenty minute time-outs, he walked over to the game and yanked the deck out of the dealer's hands. He was once banned from Commerce forever. The next day he was back in the club. How did he get debanned? He apologized.

I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't read your article, but I will go take a look now.

[rkiray]

Well, I've played at cardrooms in Vegas, Tahoe, Reno, Colorado, Indiana, and New Mexico. From what I've seen the players in Nevada are much more abusive than anywhere else. And management tolerates it. This is particularly true in Las Vegas. I think the problem is too many people struggling to try to make a living playing poker in Vegas and not doing well. This seems to be true at all the Vegas poker rooms, but shows up the most at both Mirage and Bellagio. I've played more hours at Mirage and I've seen lots of behavoir there that simply would not be tolerated at the cardrooms I play at in CO. I think The Lodge where I've played the most does a great job of policing their players. I've seen 4 people tossed out of their card room (one of who was arrested) for behavoir that would have been tolerated at both Bellagio and Mirage. Part of this is because CO has really strict rules on gambling (no more than one drink/30 minutes, if you are drunk you can't gamble, etc.) But I also think The Lodge is a really well run room and their kicking people out works well. In general most of the players are well behaved (of course there are some a$$holes everywhere).

[RydenStoompala]

Congrats on such a successful post. These responses should be bundled and shipped to every card room manager in the country. I'm a regular at six different places. It would be ten but the management at the other four like to invite bullies and make them comfortable. As much fun as it is to play poker, and little else comes close, playing with one or more miserable, abusive morons at the table is a waste of time. If the club wont keep the peace, they deserve what they get...a room full of shitheads and bad tippers.