My "Tilt" Problem (or, "Dr. Al, Please Psychoanalyze Me!")

[FeliciaLee]

Lots of people have posted about various Tilt problems that they have. The most common seems to be playing too many hands, and pushing them too far.

I have always had the opposite problem. I have studied Dr. Al's book. I have studied Dr. Feeney's book, but I have yet to overcome this tendency.

When I have had several bad beats, or have not had a winning hand in a long, long time, I tend to tighten up. I virtually fold all but Group I and maybe Group II hands. It doesn't matter about my position, the table dynamics, the stakes, etc.

I will not play mediocre hands, even in late position, when I can limp in.

Granted, this doesn't occur until I have taken punishment after punishment. For instance, one day at the 10/20 game I did not receive a pair for over four hours, or about 160 hands. I am not trying to assert that I need a pair to win a hand, nor even play one, I am just giving an example of my lack of decent starting hands.

In 4.5 hours I didn't win one pot (and part of the time, we were playing eight and nine-handed, so not even a full table). I got "lucky" in one hand when I was dealt QJo in the blind, saw a flop of KJx, check-called a player who would have bet with anything (he played through me, having seen how badly I was getting beat all day), then caught another jack on the river. He did have a pair of kings, btw.

Players start playing through me when they see how badly I'm running. My raises mean nothing, and I usually get called in 3, 4, up to 8 places, by hands that are utter trash.

I will raise and bet, bet, bet my premium hands all the way, only to get outdrawn on the river by a guy who had a two-outer. I am not saying this doesn't happen every day, it does, but once players start playing through me, it happens a lot more often. Even the most uneducated of players see that my hands are getting outdrawn, and they want to "get some," too. Even subconsciously, they figure, "Everyone is outdrawing her. Not one of her great hands is winning. If they can all outdraw her, I can, too."

I know, I know, all of the "books" say I should exercise my right of table selection, get up, and move to a different table. Unfortunately, that 10/20 game is the ONLY game in town! Not only that, but the game is GOOD. It is usually very, very juicy, especially by Saturday evening (it is only played on Saturday, and sometimes into Sunday).

I usually win at this game. I am not complaining whatsoever. But when I start to run bad, I really run bad!

Should I just quit the game altogether when this happens? Stand up and put myself on the 4/8 game until things turn around? Or should I "play through" the bad times, even when other players are outdrawing me more often then they normally would, having seen my horrible string of "luck" and deciding not to respect my bets and/or raises?

By getting up, I will have the benefit of going to a new table, albeit for smaller stakes, and establishing a new image, but isn't this like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound?

Blah! It's hard to know what the right move is, when my version of tilt is almost the exact opposite of the "norm."

Help!

Thanks,

"Confused" at the Colorado Belle, aka, Felicia, lol.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]

When I have had several bad beats, or have not had a winning hand in a long, long time, I tend to tighten up. I virtually fold all but Group I and maybe Group II hands. It doesn't matter about my position, the table dynamics, the stakes, etc.

I will not play mediocre hands, even in late position, when I can limp in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you begin playing scared, you lose the edge that separates you from the other players. The loss of this edge must translate into a net loss in BB, regardless of how the cards are falling. Also, I know from personal experience that it's not much fun to be playing when one feels like this.




[ QUOTE ]

I know, I know, all of the "books" say I should exercise my right of table selection, get up, and move to a different table. Unfortunately, that 10/20 game is the ONLY game in town! Not only that, but the game is GOOD.

[/ QUOTE ]


It may be the only game in town that night, yet it is but a snapshot in time of the rest of your life. Maybe at times like this it's best to try to convince your husband that you should both leave so that the two of you can spend some quality, soothing time together. Finally, how good will the game be if you're playing too scared to press your advantages to the max?




[ QUOTE ]
By getting up, I will have the benefit of going to a new table, albeit for smaller stakes, and establishing a new image, but isn't this like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it better to be spurting money out of the gaping wound because you're probably playing worse than usual in response to the bad beats you're receiving?


For what it's worth, I am a psychologist, although like most poker players, I struggle to overcome my own tilt tendencies. Just don't lose sight of the bigger picture.

[Joe Tall]

Felicia,

First, I'd like to say I enjoy your posts. I usually donnot have the time to properaly respond as they trend to be of length but I do take time to read each one because of their quality. Thanks.

As for your problems with tilt, we all know the power it has to throw us off our games. Tilt lessens the advantage we have versus others player if we let it.

What causes it?

Anger and frustration of getting drawn out on as you have listed. Granted it has different effects on our play as individuals but it still effects us.

Bad beats will happen and continue to happen; this is a fact we cannot change. Therefore, I have convinced myself that bad beats have to happen, I need them. The types of players that deliver them are the ones that I want in my game.

Recently I joined forces with Homer J. Simpson and with some help from JTG51; I wrote and article about Bad Beats and it is posted here: "Enjoy a Bad Beat" (http://www.riveredagain.com/articles.htm#Tall_Enjoy_a_Bad_Beat)

With repeated practice of my philosphy, I've become stronger and stronger at handling tilt. I smile inside as I tap the table and say, 'Nice hand', knowing their 2-outer will have a fat-chance hitting next time.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[FeliciaLee]

Thanks, Joe /images/graemlins/wink.gif That means a lot to me!

Please believe me when I say that I LOVE bad beats. Nothing pleases me more than sitting at a table and seeing lots of bad beats. I know I am usually going to win quite a few big bets per hour!

This goes way beyond bad beats, into my own warped psyche. I only used that as an example. I was talking about running bad; not picking up a pot in five hours, players playing "through" you, etc.

Bad beats have no effect on my (good) play. Running bad for several hours DOES.

I know there is an answer, I am just not sure what the answer is. I am waiting for poor Dr. Al to have to handle this one, lol.

[FeliciaLee]

Thanks, Dr. "Pain," LOL. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Maybe the answer is to simply leave. I don't know. I appreciate your response, in any case.

It is just very, very hard to get up from a table that is so juicy. Like Sklansky says, "Some opponents are literally giving their money away." These are the games I'm talking about, especially late on Saturday nights. It's hard to justify leaving a GREAT game, regardless of the fact that my opponents are playing "through" me.

Maybe I don't want to see reality; that no matter how badly they are playing, they are taking MY money. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Again, thanks for the response. I am going to chew on this one! /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[LetsRock]

For the record, I tend to hide in the comfort of "tight" when things are not going well and experience the same "lack of respect" from opponents when I "tilt".

I'm no expert, but I've been trying to wrap my little brain around the concept of cycles of "personal fortune". The concept of cycles has been presented by most "experts", but since it not the type of thing that is absolutely definable, the tactics to combat the "unfortunate" periods of these cycles are naturally very general.

The questions I've been pondering about this cycle are:

Is the cycle based on time or iterations?

Is the cycle based only on this perticular environment (for purposes of poker equate environment to table or site) or on me, no matter what environment I'm in?

My take on the cycle is that there are 3 zones:
A. No matter what you do, you will win (the odds are skewed in your favor)

B. If you play correctly, you will win (the odds are "working" as you expect them to)

C. No matter what you do, you will lose. (the odds are skewed against you.


At this point, (and this is not MY final answer) my conclusion is that the cycle and it's "zones" are iteration based and relates to me, not the environment.

My approach to dealing with the downswings is to play as many hands as I can at lower levels of risk until the cycle seems to have passed (I never really know for sure, do I).

If the bad cards are following me, they're going to find me no matter what environment I choose. Since (in my theory) it's iteration based, not playing for X amount of time won't move the cycle through the bad times. If the "laws" of this cycle require me to sit through X number of bad hands, I'm going to do so with the lowest risk possible.

If my theory is flawed and there's another factor that I haven't considered, well at least I'm doing consiously something besides being a helpless victim of the mysterious laws of fortune cycles.

In my quest to define this mystical cycle better, I'm begining to do some tracking based on the my definitions of the 3 zones of the cycles to attempt to determine the patterns and iteration values of each zone.

LOL - I'll probably never really answer the eternal question, but I'm not one to take fate lying down! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ResidentParanoid]

I hate that feeling!

Since players are not going to respect your bets, then you are obviously going to need win a showdown. I feel weak during these runs, but all you can do is fold until you can show something down. The rock-like play usually slowly (sometimes very slowly) re-builds your image. Who knows, you may even steal a blind or two after some time. You know you can't win much during those runs, just try to win back your blinds.

It sounds like you are doing about all you can.

[oddjob]

sounds like you get gun shy when you're not running so hot. i usually change tables. it helps me get out of my "running bad" mentality. plus they're new players, so they don't know that psychologically you're not at your top. also give your mind something else to think, you can concentrate more on getting reads on the new table.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Felicia,

Unfortunately, I don't do psychoanalysis, but I'll try to respond to your "call for help." The first and most important point was already made by others: You are doing pretty well. Your tightening up is IMMEASURABLY better than the typical one of playing too many hands and playing them too aggressively.
I must make another positive point: You are aware of and adjust to your table image. MOST people don't.
A third positive point is that you're self-critical. MOST people aren't. They blame others for their problems, while you clearly criticize yourself and accept responsibility for your actions.
In other words, my reaction is considerably more positive about you than you are. Now let's talk about what you can do about it.
I agree with those who suggested that you change tables or limits or even go home. In fact, the last alternative is often the best one. As others pointed out, you are not playing your best, and it is often better to do something else.
In fact, almost any reasonable change is desirable, not just in this situation, but in almost any situation which causes us to play below our abilities. However, the changes should be made for rational reasons, and there is a VERY irrational element in your post: You act as if "running badly" for a while predicts the cards you will get later.
You and countless other people ignore THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY THAT CARDS ARE ALWAYS RANDOM, PERIOD. Your chances of getting good or bad cards next hand are ALWAYS completely independent of your past hands. If you go to cardplayer.com, you can find two articles I wrote on this subject, "Running bad, or playing badly?"
This thread demonstrates some of the strengths of twoplustwo.com's forums. You came to us with a problem, and we did our best to help you to solve it. Although you directly asked for my help, I think the others gave a lot better advice than I did.
Regards,
Al

[Ulysses]

Felicia,

I think a big part of the problem here is that you're getting tentative after running bad for a while.

First thing I do to preemptively counter this is buy a lot of chips. I always buy a couple of racks. If I start off running bad, I'll rebuy another rack or two quickly. I don't keep track of how much I've bought, so I often have no idea how much I've won or lost 'til I count my money. Sure, if I don't win a pot in 5 hours, I'll know that. But I'm not constantly facing a shrinking stack of chips. That's depressing.

Second thing is to not change your play. You know that massive multi-way draw that you should be pumping up? Don't just call because you're running bad. While they might not realize it, that's part of what people sense. When you change the way you play, even slightly, you're making it easier for them to beat them. You need to keep charging them the max. And you also need to take every +EV opportunity - like limping w/ good drawing hands in late position that it sounds like you start to muck. By "playing through you" as you call it, these players are doing their best to give you the money. Take advantage of that. And make sure they all know that if they're going to be drawing against you, it's going to cost them a lot of money to see the river.

Third, and this is the trickiest, is to really not care. This is hard to do and takes a lot of time, but when the result of each hand truly doesn't bother you because you know you're going to get the money in the end, people will sense that just as they sense you being tentative and fearful. I think this is something that just comes with time, but it's huge if you can get there.

The longest I've gone recently w/out winning a pot was over 6 hours in a 15/30 game. It happens. Just make sure you win a lot more from them when they hit the same dry spell than you lose to them during yours.

Now, sometimes, you're tired and frustrated after a streak like this and know you're not going to play your best. That's a great time to leave and come back later to get your money back - with interest. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, I don't do psychoanalysis, but I'll try to respond to your "call for help."

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks so much, Al. The "psychoanalyze" thing, as well as the Dear Abby'esque ending of "Confused at the Colorado Belle" was my lame attempt at humor! /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I think that you, and everyone else who responded, are right. I should go home. It doesn't matter how juicy the game is if *I* can't beat it!

I completely believe that I am not "due" any good cards or winning hands. I have studied your book, and never believed that, at any rate. You have, however, exposed a fallacy in my thinking overall. I was thinking of staying at a good game, no matter if I was losing or not, because eventually I will stop "running bad." While that is true, it doesn't mean it is going to happen in that session, or the NEXT! I can't sit at that table forever, waiting for things to "even out." Especially with my play deteriorating and my table image so poor!!! You hit the nail on the head!

I have read all of your articles. Yours are always at the top of my interest list, when I pick up Cardplayer, or log on to 2+2. I have always been more interested in the psychological aspects of poker than any other aspects.

I think your advice was wonderful, and while I didn't want to hear it, it completely complements the other advice I have gotten in this thread. I felt all of them were sincere and running along the same vein (except the mathmatical one, which I didn't really get at all).

Thank you, again, so much! I have many things to chew on!

[Al Schoonmaker]

Felicia,

Thanks for the kind words.

Now when are we going to see you and your husband at the WPDG?

All you other readers are welcome. PM me if you'll be in LV on a Wednesday.

Regards,

Al

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
It is just very, very hard to get up from a table that is so juicy....It's hard to justify leaving a GREAT game.


[/ QUOTE ]


Felicia,

Last night I was playing at a Party 1/2 table, which is my new "higher" limit as of the past month. However, I should note that over Thanksgiving weekend I had inadvertanly sat down at a Party 2/4 table one night, remained after I realized my mistake, and proceeded to drop close to 35BB before I left, which now left me 70BB to make up after my quick return to the 1/2 level. Although I have made back much of this money, it still stinks to be in this hole.

Nonetheless, back to last night. After suffering one -5BB setback after my JJ got busted by a woman who caught trip 2's on a 226 flop after calling my PF raise with 28o (!?), I proceeded to win close to 30BB in the next half hour through a combination of good cards and seemingly poor play by my opponents, although I couldn't be certain of the latter since I didn't have access to my e-mail to quickly check mucked showdown hands. Then, after seeing no further good cards, with the exception of a hand that cost me 5BB even though I played it properly, I begin to feel uneasy, even scared. Thoughts began running through my head like: "What if the good run of cards has come to an end?...How will you feel if you drop another 10BB before quitting...etc?"

Consequently, I made the decision to quit playing for the night. Was it weak of me to leave a seemingly good table? Quite possibly...Was it weak to have all of these doubts and concerns about bankroll? Undoubtedly...

However, since I am attempting to incorporate the newly learned Tao philosophy of "knowing theyself," I felt it was best to book my win and sit out after I perceived something to be wrong internally, rather than to make the mistake of attempting to play through it. Indeed, there will always be another day, with another fish tank to plunder...

[Lawrence Ng]

Felicia,

I am currently riding a mean streak on perhaps almost exactly what you are describing here. For the past few days the cards are just plain cold for me and I have sat for hours on end without winning a single pot.

My threshold before I start hitting the "tilt illusion" is about 4 hours. After 4 hours of cold play, I start losing my A game because I won't do things like raise or call when I should. Even if I do eventually win a pot I will hate myself because often I did not play the hand correctly.

When that starts happening, I know it's time to take a walk for a round or just get off the table and leave.

There's always another day to come back and play.

Here are some side notes I tell myself whenever I feel I start losing my edge:

1. Poker is an endless game.
2. Am I the fish at this table? You wouldn't believe how many times I've said yes after I left the table.
3. Am I making correct decisions on my plays?
4. Changing the deck or dealer will make zero differnce. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Have you ever tried doing any yoga or mind meditating excercises. I have found it helps a great deal and helps relax and ease the mind in many activities during the day. Poker is one of those activities where yoga has helped me keep maintain self control and compusure for a longer duration than I normally would maintain.

Also I think its important to have some support from peers/families/loved ones. Sometimes if I'm really riding a bad streak, I will call my girlfriend and just downright complain and vent out about how bad I am running and how the fish are getting away with murder on the table. I'm not venting at her, but I just need to let it out of my system. She's very supportive and understands it's just my way of letting steam out of my system. Plus her support for me gives me the strength and confidence I need to get my A game back.

[Wiscer]

>>THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY THAT CARDS ARE ALWAYS RANDOM, PERIOD.

I certainly believe this to be the case (my recent capture by the Probability Distortion Field notwithstanding). Thus it would seem to me that while the risk reduction reaction would be to drop down in level "while you are running bad", it seems that if you are going to suffer a run of bad cards at a certain level, as long as you are not tilting off chips, you should remain at that level to capture the upside of the (hopefully) inevitable reverse in fortune, especially if said game is a "juicy" one.

It seems to be a losing proposition to lose 100 big bets at 10/20, decide to drop down to 3/6, and proceed to recover those 100 big bets while playing 3/6. You're down 2000 and back up 600 for a net loss of $1400 even though you should be even.

Frankly, this same line of reasoning has always bothered me when it comes to tourney play. I play a range of tournies from $55 up to $3000. Assuming the cards don't care what the buyin is, it seems to me that it is even more of a crapshoot when it comes to your net win/loss in tournies because it all depends on the buyin/# players in the event you happen to win against the buyins of all those you lost.

So I say if it is a good game and you aren't tilting away chips playing too many hands, you just suck it up and wait for the PDF to reverse it's polarity (eg. from negative to POSITIVE!). Similarly, I try to play at/around my regular limit and only move up when table selection indicates a good game and a chance to book a win against weak competition. I dislike playing below my regular limit partly because when I get those AA to hold up in a 3/6 game, in the back of my mind I hear this little voice saying "nice win, but that doesn't make up for the last loss you had with them in the 10/20" and I feel like I wasted them at the lower level.

Bill

[ChipWrecked]

Good point, that made me think of the same reason(s) not to try to 'time' the stock market.

One thing I keep in mind during cold streaks is my TTH practice. Many times after 'zipping' through hand after hand of unplayable cards, I'll think, "Wow, that's like, three or four hours of sitting there live."

[Al Schoonmaker]

There is a fundamental flaw in your thinking, and it is one with potentially disastrous effects. You are too concerned with getting even. In fact, if you are a long term winning player, you do NOT want to get even. You would have to lose a great deal of money to do so.
You want to "recover" the money you lost recently, probably just tonight. There is only one rational thing to do about that money; forget it. It's gone, and trying to recover it is a major, perhaps the biggest reason that people go on tilt.
You did, however, qualify your remarks by saying: "So I say if it is a good game and you aren't tilting away chips playing too many hands, you just suck it up and wait for the PDF to reverse it's polarity (eg. from negative to POSITIVE!)."
That statement directly conflicts with the point that cards are always random. NOTHING affects them. The PDF is not going to reverse its field. Cards do NOT become due.
The reason I (and, perhaps, you) should move down or go home is quite simple: If I lose enough money, I don't play that well. In one of my columns I used the term "psychological bankroll" for the amount we can lose before our play is affected. Virtually every one has a limited psychological bankroll (even if they don't think so), and it is MUCH lower than our financial bankroll.
I know what mine is. When I lose it, or if I see my play deteriorate signficantly for any reason, I go home.
Do I leave some juicy games? Of course, but I never go on tilt, and I never take a loss large enough to bother me the next day.
Regards,
Al

[spike]

[ QUOTE ]
THE FUNDAMENTAL REALITY THAT CARDS ARE ALWAYS RANDOM, PERIOD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100%... it seems to be the thing most people overlook when they are "running bad". If people are starting to disrespect your bets and raises because they see that you're constantly getting outdrawn then you should welcome this. As long as your bets and raises are backed up by the odds the pot is offering you then these people are making a mistake. Revel in their misunderstanding of the "bad run".

My girlfriend's birthday is the 11th of November. So, whenever she's near a roulette table she throws one bet on 11. Last week we were standing by one of these new roulette machines. She had trouble getting it to accept her money and by the time she tried to place her bet the ball was spinning and bets were closed. And 11 came up.

So when betting reopened I reached over and hit the 11. "Well, it's not going to come up now is it!?!" she exclaimed. "Why not?" I asked. "Does the ball remember that it's just been in the 11 hole and to wait a while before dropping there again?"

The irony of this isn't lost on me of course... trying to teach her a bit about the randomness of the roulette wheel while I place the bet on her "lucky" number.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Spike,
Anyone who can laugh at himself can't be all bad.
Al

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever tried doing any yoga or mind meditating excercises? I have found it helps a great deal and helps relax and ease the mind in many activities during the day. Poker is one of those activities where yoga has helped me keep maintain self control and compusure for a longer duration than I normally would maintain.

[/ QUOTE ]
I actually have a CD called "Guided Meditation." Maybe I should whip that out sometime! Tyvm for making me think of that!

I love this thread, and the excellent advice I've gotten. I hope others have benefitted as well. I actually skipped my "big" 10/20 game on Saturday and stayed home. This is the first time I've missed it since we moved to Arizona (early Sept, 2003).

After my Thanksgiving in Vegas, I came to the realization that I don't really even enjoy cash games. I was playing because I could beat the game, because it was there, and because there were no tourneys on Saturdays. Those three factors were my motivation. Horrible, eh?

While I'm not saying that I'll never play in a cash game again (I'm sure I will), I am glad to have come to the self discovery that I don't really enjoy cash games, even my beloved 10/20.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I don't think much of TTH, but the more recent versions have one feature you might like. You can set it so that you don't get unplayable hands.
Regards,
Al

[turnipmonster]

hey felicia,
we have all had terrible runs of cold cards, it really sucks. what works for me is playing shorter sessions and booking winning sessions, even if the game is good. I buy in for a rack, and play my best for only about 2 hours or so. winning or losing, I quit after 2 hours no matter how good the game is.

this may not work for you, but it helps prevent me from playing bad when I'm running bad. nothing is worse than playing all night and booking a big losing session after you've been running bad. give it a try, it might help.

--turnipmonster

[Lou Krieger]

[ QUOTE ]
It is just very, very hard to get up from a table that is so juicy. Like Sklansky says, "Some opponents are literally giving their money away." These are the games I'm talking about, especially late on Saturday nights. It's hard to justify leaving a GREAT game, regardless of the fact that my opponents are playing "through" me.

Maybe I don't want to see reality; that no matter how badly they are playing, they are taking MY money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I'm so late to the dance. This is a terrific thread, and, as you know, your spate of losing sessions happens to everyone. What works for me is that I am assiduous about keeping a poker log and recording my wins and losses, even when they are painful to enter and more painfulto look at.

But there's a silver lining in this dark cloud too, and this is it: By keeping records for a long time, you'll see that any one losing session, or even a big bunch of them, won't do much to disturb your hard earned average hourly win rate. It's like a good hitter in baseball who goes into a slump. If he goes 0 for 16 in August, it's not going to drop his batting average all that much, and his lifetime average will hardly change at all.

Just look as far down the road as you can. Poker is a very long game.