Tournament Hand--Did I make a bad call??

[samking]

Did I screw up here? I'm in a small tournament that pays the top four and we are now down to five handed. There are 210,000 chips in play. I am chip leader at about 65,000, short stack has about 14,000 and the next biggest stack is 48,000. The blinds are at 400/800 with 200 chip ante. I pick up 88 under the gun and raise it to 5,000 (mistake one??). Short stack calls in the position after me. Second biggest stack raises it to 20,000 on the BB. He is a tight-agressive player, a good player, and he is running well and making good plays. I think he is putting a move on me and I flat call the additional 15,000 (mistake two?). Short stack folds. Flop comes down 10 9 6, rainbow suits. He moves in for his remaining 25,000. Do I call? Please advise.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Raise less preflop. Make it more like T2500 to go. You'll steal the blinds almost as often, and lose less when you don't steal.

Don't call this raise, unless you can put this opponent one some very specific hands. For example, if you knew he would've raised less with AA-QQ, but would raise this much with AK or AQ, then you can maybe call and outplay him postflop. Problem here is he's already committed close to half his stack, so is he going to check-fold when he misses the flop? For many players, the answer is no.

You don't want to put in all your chips knowing in advance it's a coin-flip, and T5000 isn't such a large fraction of your stack that you're potstuck.

On the flop, hell yes you call. If you think he has an overpair, you should've folded preflop. That's a very good flop for 88, all things considered. I don't see how you can fold now getting over 5:2 on the call.

Hope it worked out well.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[curmudgeon]

Good... you've already identified your mistakes. /images/graemlins/cool.gif
This isn't the time to take big risks as chip leader, especially against the 2nd biggest stack. Smaller stacks are jumpin for joy when the big stacks are gamblin it up.
Play smarter, live longer (Patience & Survival), make money.

I assume you lost... or did you fold?! /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[samking]

Actually, I put the hand up in reverse. I was the one who made the $20,000 chip raise (with 27 offsuit). I read the guy with 88 for something along those lines, the kind of hand where you really don't want to see a flop. I also knew the small stack would fold. I figured that, as teh chip leader, the guy with wired 8s wouldn't gamble like he did and such there was 10,000 chips out on the table to be stolen. Then, when I busted out (he called on the flop), he claimed that it was a great play by him. I wanted to know what you guys thought.

[curmudgeon]

He did make a great play, relative to yours.
You're a complete idiot /images/graemlins/blush.gif and he obviously had a read on you!
You lost because you didn't say "quack quack" and bet 22k. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[JDO]

The only thing you did right was read the guy. I am very confused. Why would you put your tourney life on the line, a healthy 2nd place chip stack of 46,000 and any hope of the money, on pure bluff with the worst possible hand?

[esknights]

what the heck kind of crappy post was that? 27o ...I don't believe it

[triplc]

I have two problems with the reraise with 27o, other than the obvious.

The first is that you are trying to steal from two players, not just one. You had the big stack read appropriately, but what about the SB? He felt good enough to at least call a 6xBB raise. Given that you raised to 20K, and the big stack called, he folded. Would he have folded had he been heads-up, all-in? I'm guessing not. He saw an opportunity to watch the two big stacks duke it out, and slide into the money. Hell, here's where a laydown with just about anything other than AA (and maybe even AA) makes sense for the SB.

You are up against the big stack and the small stack. Against one stack of comparable size, take a shot (maybe...I'd still lay this down every time). Against two stacks like this...fold and hope the short stack gets busted right now.

Second, the big stack has already called your raise preflop. This means he has likely put you on a steal, or at the worst, he thinks you have AK, AQs, or something like it and wants to see the flop. Given the flop, if he was willing to call you pre-flop, he has to be ready to call you post flop with no A or K showing.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya samking,

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You tried to bluff with the worst possible hand, in a multi-way pot, including the only player who could bust you. He read you for a bluff and called you down.

And you're asking if HE made the right play???

Cris

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
He is a tight-agressive player, a good player, and he is running well and making good plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this humble description of "the other guy." From his play, it sounds like you may have over-estimated him.

[Schmed]

I am all for a raise here but not that much. I would raise, at most, 4xBB. Usually when the blinds are this big 3x is enough to move out whomever is leaving anyway.

Now the call.......... /images/graemlins/grin.gif I don't want to get involved with anyone with a lot of chips at this stage of the tournament. I certainly don't want to get involved with a guy who can cripple me with 88 when I can basically blind my way in to the money. I want paid so as much as it would have bummed me out to do it I would have folded to his big reraise preflop and hope that the SS calls.

You have to let this go on the flop. Say he was making a move with the j9...well he just hit his 9 and you're dead.....

[Schmed]

I guess you're right about the call on the flop. My thinking with folding there is I still have chips..then again if the read is as you said, (AK, or AQ), then you have to call.

My guess is the guy in the BB had some decent pocket 10 or greater, and he got taken down for all of his chips.

[Schmed]

I guess this goes to show you that I really don't read the responses before I post my thoughts....

I know the feeling....you're sitting there in the BB with a lot of chips out there and you think....wouldn't it be great to take this pot with this hand......and then I wake up.....

This is either a joke or it's the worst/stupidest bluff I have ever read about in my life... I'm glad the guy put the read on you....and I'm glad he took you down....

[PlayerA]

Funny thing is that I almost responded the following to the original post: "If you think that BB will make this move with A/little or 27, then you should re-raise all-in and put him to the decision so that he won't have the chance to put you to one. Otherwise, fold, you're either a big dog or coin-flip blah blah blah"

[samking]

I was sure he was going to do one of two things. A he folds and I win, which I was sure he was going to do. But i knew if he didnt, he move me in and id muck my hand. I was confident that 25,000 remaining chips were pleanty to play with and thus I figured that if he made me for junk I'd still be ok.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
He is a tight-agressive player, a good player, and he is running well and making good plays.

[/ QUOTE ]
this becomes 100 million times funnier after the revelation that "the other guy" was actually the poster! awesome...

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
this becomes 100 million times funnier after the revelation that "the other guy" was actually the poster! awesome...

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly. I also loved the description of himself...then reveals what he played. Priceless /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[samking]

Sooooo.... I take it there is an open invitation for me to all of your home games??

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Second biggest stack raises it to 20,000 on the BB. He is a tight-agressive player, a good player, and he is running well and making good plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. As a matter of fact, there is one this weekend. The buy in is only $100 and there will be about 60 players. It pays down to the final table so 1 in 6 make the money. 10th place usually makes the buy in back. Feel free to come on in. If you want to make a weekend out of it there are two casinos within 10 miles that spread O8 and HE up to about 20-40. You in? If so, PM me and I will give you directions and who to contact.