Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Here's a hand I played tonight in a $60-$120 game at The Bellagio. A new player had just sat down and was taking an out of position blind between the button and the small blind. That meant there were three blinds. One for $60 to the immediate left of the button. The small blind for $40 dollars two to the left of the button. And the big blind for $60 three to the left of the button.

I was in (what most of you refer to as the) cutoff seat and held the
J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif, so only the dealer and the three blinds remained to act after me. It was passed to me and I folded.

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

[eugeneel]

good play, great minds think alike.

I would limp in with a suited connector like 89s and raise with a hand like jq or above. I don't know what I would do with j10 to be honest but I would usually fold the q 10 here as well.

J10 I would most likey raise but would limping in be a very bad choice?

-Eugene

[Andy B]

Is this the first "Hand to Talk About" that you didn't win?

[brad]

would u limp on the button?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Andy:
No.

Best wishes,
Mason

[J_V]

Mason, I want hear about your worst hand of the month. The one hand you lost you totally outplayed the guy on every street.

We all pay off with second pair. Let's hear one where you do.

[karlson]

By no means! You don't remember these threads?

Mason's Hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=72925)
Andy's Hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=72990)

[Rick Nebiolo]

Mason,

Jack nine offsuit in the cutoff is just barely a blind steal with two or the right kind of blinds (tight and predictable, not tenacious) and a soft button acting after you. The third blind makes it a worse raise, mostly since you rarely steal the blinds and are a big favorite to be up against a better hand or two.

Calling is a valid option. Other than the button, it would take a real hand for an opponent to raise out of position and at least you would know what you are up against post flop. It just seems too good to fold against three random hands. But it is at least close.

You wrote: "A new player had just sat down and was taking an out of position blind between the button and the small blind. That meant there were three blinds. One for $60 to the immediate left of the button. The small blind for $40 dollars two to the left of the button. And the big blind for $60 three to the left of the button."

At the Bike Top Section we allow this inside post for a new player (the button passes over the next hand) along with buy the button (and a reduced penalty for moving away from the blinds - you just post the big blind rather than big and small dead). Other Los Angeles Clubs are trending towards variations of these posting procedures (with Buy the Button being almost universally accepted).

What do you or anyone else think of these posting procedures?

Regards,

Rick

[Tommy Angelo]

"All comments welcome."

Hi Mason,

:-)

I think you made what most of us refer to as a good play. Just because there was extra of what most of us refer to as dead money doesn't mean you should get what some of us refer to as goofy.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you made what most of us refer to as a good play. Just because there was extra of what most of us refer to as dead money doesn't mean you should get what some of us refer to as goofy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Some of us would have to agree with Tommy

[J.A.Sucker]

I think it's close between folding and calling, but your hand is pretty good (compared to a random holding) and you have position, which you use very well. You won't steal the blinds with three people in the pot very often, so raising isn't a good option.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
so only the dealer and the three blinds remained to act after me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's many people. More money to steal means it's harder to steal. Your opponents likely know that you'll widen your range of raising hands with three blinds to be picked on.

[Clarkmeister]

"That's many people. More money to steal means it's harder to steal. Your opponents likely know that you'll widen your range of raising hands with three blinds to be picked on."

What's the point of having a tightwad image if one never uses it?

[Ginogino]

Mason:
When you think about it, any bet (raise or lead bet) prior to the river is a semi-bluff bet. That is to say, any bet derives some value from the chance that at the end the bettor's hand will be best and also some value from the chance that the bet will get others to fold right away.

J9o would be, in the correct situation, a good hand to raise with when folded to in the cutoff. In the game situation in which you found yourself, the extra blind puts enough players after you and enough dead money in the pot that you have lost almost any "bluff" component of your bet. In addition, given the numbers of your opponents you will likely be facing hands that have better prospects than you do which reduces the "value" part of your bet past a point at which it's worth raising.

Overall, I think it's raise or fold here, and if raising is a bad idea, then that leaves folding.

Gino

[Nottom]

I'm still confused about the whole posting in front of the button thing. Is this standard in Vegas?

[andyfox]

There's nothing to indicate one never uses it. Just that one didn't use it this time.

[andyfox]

I noticed this at the Bike when I was there a couple of weeks ago. Commerce does not allow the inside post, but it does now have buy the button.

Anything that stimulates action is good.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I was in (what most of you refer to as the) cutoff seat

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason, what do you refer to that seat as?

[andyfox]

How would late position pre-flop play differ if the structure of the game was changed to that there were three blinds? I would think you would loosen up on your playing/raising standards because the reward for "stealing" the blinds was that much more.

But of course the blinds would be more tempted to also loosen up their calling standards for the same reason, especially if there were two big blinds (as there was in this case).

Didn't hold'em used to be played with only one blind? If so, wouldn't this situation be analogous to the change from one blind to two?

[andyfox]

I gotta start watching what I say, I had no idea you could call up something from two years ago. Especially when it's such a smart-ass post.

Belated apologies, Mason. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Paluka]

I think that more blinds means you should tighten up your standards, not loosen them. Having more resistance more than outweighs the extra money. It should be obvious when you continue to add blinds. If 6 guys posted behind you, you don't raise it up with Q8o because of the extra blinds. I guess some might make the argument that the function is not linear- this could be the case because some hands play better multiway. With 6 blinds you might raise it up with 89s, but not with A7o. You can loosen up more in actual dead money situations like when people post a bb + a dead sb. The same concept works when you reduce blinds as well- on the button against just a big blind you can raise a lot of hands. You are against just one random hand plus you have position.
As for J9o, I think limping would be better than raising but I think I would fold.

[nykenny]

By no means I am saying it is wrong to fold J9o in CO (cut-off, where did this term come from?). However, in a soft field, which describes the 10-20 game i usually play in, I am confident i can play J9o profitably against 3 blinds in position, so my first choice would be to raise, close 2nd would be to limp, especially so if i sense the Button is going to fold.

Kenny

[ACPlayer]

Would it not be easier to play J9 off against a tight field then a soft field?

With a tight field you are more likely to know where you are then against a soft field. Also more likely to steal pot on many flops.

[Gabe]

It's the type of hands you loosen or tighten up with that's relevant.

[gonores]

How do you find threads from late 2001, early 2002?

[karlson]

The search feature seems to work just fine.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

It's basically a trash hand, plus you are virtually assured of two things:

1. if you raise you won't steal anything, you'll be playing trash for two bets against at least one opponent.

2. if you call you're almost certainly going to have three opponents to take on with your trash hand.

I see no problem here with folding.

al

[elysium]

hi mason
i've been out of the loop for a while, it's good to be posting again.

i like the fold. there is little hope of getting everyone to fold and that's what you need to to have happen here.

[skp]

While there may be no "problem" with folding, I don't necessarily see it as being clearly the best play (and perhaps you don't either...I am not suggesting that you do or don't).

One could call and simply use position at a later stage in the hand to win the pot (guys in early position are easier to read postflop when there has been no preflop raise). As for a raise, it too has something going for it. You may not be able to steal the blinds preflop but your raise may set up a steal on 3rd or 4th street.

I can see good viable arguments for folding, calling, and raising.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
1. if you raise you won't steal anything, you'll be playing trash for two bets against at least one opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably 3 bets.

But he does have position.

I think it's a lot closer than anyone seems to think. I think he'd actually raise this some of the time, just not this time with 4 to act after him.

~D

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You are right, I think it's close and I won't spend much time trying to de-bunk anyone's opinion if it differs with mine. I would fold because I tend to play a bit conservatively. I personally don't like unsuited middle cards. Now if there was only the usual two blinds I'd probably raise from the cutoff with J9o.

al

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
There's nothing to indicate one never uses it. Just that one didn't use it this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, it wasn't really directed at this particular hand. I was really just thinking out loud in response to Tylers post.

[Tyler Durden]

While I agree that it's important to use and take advantage of a tight image, I think it will be incredibly difficult in this instance to raise and expect to steal all three blinds.

As for limping, that didn't really occur to me when I read the hand.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
I was in (what most of you refer to as the) cutoff seat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Mason, what do you refer to that seat as?

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent question. I was wondering myself.

[Nottom]

I would guess he calls it the player to the right of the button.

[mikelow]

The three blinds make a steal raise very difficult. If you call, you may have to call a raise. So I agree with your fold. It's the kind of hand we all play when we're steaming.

I hope the flop wasn't J-9-x or something.

[Mason Malmuth]

No. You either raise or fold.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

Read this post by Rick. He addresses exactly the point I wanted to make. With just two blinds, if I'm two positions to the right of the button (meaning that there are four players to act after me) I definitely consider raising with this hand. However, with the third blind there, even though the pot that I might steal will be larger, it becomes a fold since my probability of stealing usually goes down more than the pot has grown.

As for limping, I guess that might be okay if the game is not too aggressive.

best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point of having a tightwad image if one never uses it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Clark:

Some of the people I play against have no idea who I am or how I play.

Others don't view me as being so tight. Thsy know that I know something about the game and that my raise from late position doesn't mean the same as my raise from early position.

Others may have an opinion on my play but their hand, which they frequently overvalue, is what determines their decision.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
When you think about it, any bet (raise or lead bet) prior to the river is a semi-bluff bet. That is to say, any bet derives some value from the chance that at the end the bettor's hand will be best and also some value from the chance that the bet will get others to fold right away.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Gino:

You need to rethink this. A semibluff hand is a hand that has some chance to improve to the best hand. Many of the hands that you bet are most likely the current best hand and will finish as the best hand a high percentage of the time. That means you sometimes play them very differently.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ulysses:

I'm now an old timer and "cutoff" is a relatively new term. To me the seat is "one off the button."

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Junior:

I basically agree except that J9o is certainly better than trash.

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SKP:

I think at a lower limit, which tend to play less aggressively, calling becomes a viable option.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the kind of hand we all play when we're steaming.


[/ QUOTE ]

No comment.

Best wishes,
Mason

[mike l.]

this hand to talk about is dumb. any moron posting on here knows not to try to openraise (or limp) w/ J9o against 3 blinds. im with JV (or whoever it was), let's see a hand where you really played questionably. if you cant think of one from the past few months at least either you are not being honest with yourself or your game has leaks.

[doublesnapper]

I probably should shut up and learn, but I'll say what I'd done with it:

If it was a 9-10 player deal I'd have folded.
If it was a less than 7 player deal and my image was tight, I'd have steal raised.
If it was a less than 7 player deal and my image was that of a thief, and the players toact were not too agressive, I'd have limped because I don't think I'm such a big underdog. If I don't hit the flop good, I'm out.

Best

DoubleSnapper

[Gamblor]

What allows one to steal blinds is that a LP raise must be called by a blind, whilst out of position, for 1 SB when there are only 3 SB in the pot after the flop. Thus, unless the flop hits hard, he cannot anticipate calling a turn bet on a draw because he (assuming he calls a flop bet, making 5 SB in the pot) he is only getting 2.5:1 when calling a turn bet (because it doubles - he is now paying 2 SB to call in a 5 SB pot). I would argue a BB caller has to anticipate being at worst even money to the steal attempt to make a call proper.

All this leads to an easy fold to an LP steal. This is where the raise or fold doctrine most applies, if your hand (or read) warrants a 3-bet, or you believe you can steal on the flop with a 3-bet.

That being said, in this situation, the three blinds make a call from one (or more) of the blinds much more likely, because with 4.5 SB in the pot before the flop there are far more hands the blinds can call with, even out of position, and at worst a check-raise bluff is not out of the question.

[Gator]

I'm a newbie, so I could be way off base. However, what if we had a crystal ball and knew the other three hands? How might this impact our decision. There is $140 in the pot at this point. What are we typically facing with three random hands if we have this J9? Might it be fair to assume one hand we clearly dominate (i.e. 48 offsuit), one coin toss (i.e. pocket threes), and one hand that dominates us (i.e. KT offsuit)? First of all, is this a reasonable assumption - if not, substitute a better one? Now, if we knew the three hands, what would the FTofP suggest we do here? If I knew the above hands were exactly as stated, I think there might be merits to calling here, seeing the flop, seeing how the positionally disadvantaged players play the flop, and using position to my advantage post flop. I'd enjoy comments on the logic of these three specific guesstimated hands and the idea of playing the hand based on making such a guesstimate.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The thing of it is, I would call you from either of the full size blinds with a wide variety of hands, even if I didn't have any idea who you were or how you played, or even if I knew exactly who you were and assumed you WERE a total tightwad. I am quite sure many others would too, so stealing is not very likely to happen. While J9o might not be "trash," it's still relatively iffy. Because of this I would tend to err towards being cautious here, ONLY because of the extra big blind. I am usually looking for an excuse NOT to play J9o rather than to play it, especially for a raise.

Once again tho, it's got to be pretty close, and I wouldn't argue too much if someone felt differently. If you were going to play it, you should probably raise at least to buy the button.

al

[Duke]

[trillig]

That's it? A smart fold with J9o is all...

I suppose your horrific flop of JJJ tale is coming...

8)

-t

post 300! whoot!