KK - 3 left in a $20 UB SnG

[Hotrod0823]

I was third in chips with T2000 and posted the SB of 150.

I have K K and the Button T4500 raised to 4xBB (T1200).

If I call the T1050 it is more than 50% of my stack. All-in I may win the hand right there but I may be running into Aces. I figure I have the best hand so I go all in and sure enough he calls with AQs. Okay I am the favorite to start the hand. No Aces fell but the river completed the Flush and I am done.

Can you fold KK in that situation and hope to ride it out a bit longer?

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you fold KK in that situation and hope to ride it out a bit longer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding would be terrible. His 4x raise could be any number of hands, not just Aces. KK is a great hand and you should be happy to get all your chips in with it.

[BradleyT]

If you're scared to play KK - I want you at my tables.

[John Gaspar]

You are a favorite over every hand but AA. Sure he could have them but not likely. Push your stack in and don't worry about it.

[Hotrod0823]

No not scared /images/graemlins/wink.gif I pushed all in and didn't think twice about it.

Afterword I was wondering if calling was a better play but don't see how. If calling is wrong and folding is out all in the only option.

The question really is if at this point in the game is it worth it to sit back and allow the others to play themselves out of it and stay out of the fray to pick up position? Usually, the other SnGs I've played, when it is down to 3 it is 1 short stack, a huge leader and a middle of the road guy not 3 virtually the same stacks.

How long can you go just passing chips?

Yes KK is a favorite but does it have to be automatic? I still think yes but wanted to see if someone could convince me otherwise /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[eMarkM]

Don't be results oriented. KK is 2nd best hand, get your chips in with no regrets.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Can you fold KK in that situation and hope to ride it out a bit longer?

No. If you can't get all your money in the middle with the 2nd best hand, what cards can you play? You made the right play.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
The question really is if at this point in the game is it worth it to sit back and allow the others to play themselves out of it and stay out of the fray to pick up position? Usually, the other SnGs I've played, when it is down to 3 it is 1 short stack, a huge leader and a middle of the road guy not 3 virtually the same stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sitting around waiting for someone to get knocked out when you are in the top 3 of a SnG isn't a way to make money. Its one thing if you have 2BBs and your opponent has 1BB and the leader has the rest, but thats a completely different situation than here.

You can either go all-in here and have an excellent chance of doubling up and being the favorite to win the thing or sit around and hope to outlast the last place guy and take second while essentially handing the win to the chip leader.

2nds and 3rds aren't the key to SnG success.

[PlayerA]

I would have made the same play (all-in preflop). Folding is out of the question.

However, I wonder if calling and betting on the flop (no matter what) has any merit. Here is why I am thinking this: if AQs knew the opponent had KK, he is still correct to call the additional 800 to win the 3200. Now if the flop comes little cards with only one of the suit of AQs, KK is now a little over a 4:1 favorite making it a close call for AQs. Just wondering what you all think on this.

[Nottom]

Most players aren't going to fold on the flop unless there is a K, in which case you don't want him to. It also allows him a chance to bluff you off the pot if an A hits and he didn't have one.

[curmudgeon]

Just calling is a great idea if you feel your opponent will not fold pre-flop, but may fold if he doesn't hit the flop. You must go all-in no matter what comes on the flop, so an Ace is irrelevant, just as if you were already all-in. This is a more sophisticated tournament play that gives the enemy 40% less of a chance to suck out on you. The all-innerds miss this opportunity to fold a hand that does not hit the flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

This type of play would work much better is you had more chips which would make your flop bet more powerful/meaningful.

Folding your Ks is out of the question. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nottom]

Thats a play you make with something like ATs not KK. I want all my opponent chips in against me with KK.

[PlayerA]

I'd just as soon win a pot by getting my opponent to fold than giving any chance for suckout. Calling gives one extra tiny chance of getting your opponent to fold. All of my chips are going in, it's just a question of whether or not they all go in before the flop. In this situation, going in before the flop does not give your opponent any opportunity to make an additional mistake (beyond their original raise against your KK) because a call is correct even if they know you have KK. On a missed flop, they no longer have a clear call according to pot odds if they know you have KK. Thus, you give your opponent a chance to fold (and allow you to survive) or make a mistake.

I venture to guess there is actually a precise mathematical answer to this situation.

Of course, everything is different if you think your opponent may fold preflop.

In a tournament, I beginning to feel like I'd just rather never be called to a showdown (except heads up on the end or when I have the nuts or near nuts).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Just calling is a great idea if you feel your opponent will not fold pre-flop

I don't want my opponent to fold if I have KK. I won't conplain if he does fold, but I'm very happy to see him call.

[Bozeman]

You will probably make a flop FTOP mistake as often as your opp. will make one in this situation. So the only possible advantage is lowering your variance.

There are situations where you can have better EV by calling with a big pair ( calling w/KK (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tourn&Number=404915&Forum= All_Forums&Words=134&Match=Username&Searchpage=3&L imit=25&Old=allposts&Main=404915&Search=true#Post4 04915) ), but they rely on a) your opponent having Ax more often than they have a lower pair b) they never have Kx or worse and generally c) they won't be weak tight postflop. And they don't do much better even then.


Craig

[PlayerA]

I'm not suggesting the play in order to fold if an A flops. I say bet no matter what. So, in a sense, this is equivalent to all-in pre-flop. The only way I see the flop bet being an FTOP mistake is when: an A flops, QQ flops, or 4-flush plus open-end straight draw (i.e. JT9, 2 of same suit as AQs). Otherwise a free card is a mistake. Even if AQs is correct to call most of the time, there will be situations where it is incorrect for AQs to call. Before the flop, it is certainly correct for AQs to call.

Part of what got me thinking is that I've been getting beat on the turn or river when I have AK vs. A/smaller. By going all-in pre-flop, I have no chance to bet a flop as a 10:1 favorite (although it's tricky to play a missed AK). I should be happy when I get called by A/smaller (even happier than if 2 undercards called), but being happy does me no good when I am out of the tourney.