Interesting Aces Hand

[MD_]

I'm playing at Bay 101 in an 8/16 game. There is a true maniac on my immediate left, other players are pretty loose, but not dumb, and all are trying to get the maniac's money.

I open raise with two black Aces from early position.
The maniac calls (he's got a little bit of respect for me, which is the only thing that kept him from making it 3 bets with anything).
2 others call, as does the big blind.

Five of us see a flop of
JcTcTh (note the two clubs)

The big blind bets.

I'm next. What now?

I'll say what I did in another post.

-MD

[MD_]

I folded. Set me straight, if you will, but I was just too afraid of being trapped for multiple bets with only two outs. Anybody could have a ten, flush and particularly straight draws were likely, I figured that even if I was best for the time being, I had too many ways to lose.

-MD

(pardon that very long run-on sentence)

[trillig]

Good discipline I say! Congrats, pro move all the way! 8)

You probably are cooked and unless 2 more clubs, an ace, two more aces, or KQ hit the board you are in trouble, and even if some of those do you are probably in trouble (A-9 with a ten certainly popular holdings...) that does give you a few more 1/2 outs maybe, so perhaps seeing the turn might have been OK, but you had bad position, so overall I like the move a lot.
[sorry for run on sentence /images/graemlins/wink.gif]

-t

[karlson]

You're mildly insane. Have you been reading too many of those posts where some guy asks if he should make it four bets on the river with the second nuts, and some wise guy tells him to fold on the flop?

Unless you are sure you're up against a ten, the fold is terrible. Even if you're up against KQ,78,and a flush draw, you're in decent shape, I think, and in reality, it's probably better than that. It would take more than a bet to convince me I was up against a ten.

I would raise and not think twice about it (the pot is not big enough to justify waiting until the turn, I think, I'll try to knock out the gutshots now).

[OrangeHeat]

I am getting you a christmas present - what size skirt do you wear?

In all seriousness - this is very weak tight. You have an overpair, back door nut str8 and flush draws...and a couple of loonies in the pot.

I am raising here almost all of the time...on occasion I may call and wait for an innocuous turn card to raise the bettor and knock out the ones behind.

With the draws there this guy could be betting any of the draws, a good J, or even a steal attempt if he knows you r weak tight...

No matter the results - this has to ba a bad fold. It is almost like these guys who say they mucked aces preflop because they figured everyone else had the other two between them......bad bad bad...

[rivaridge]

Horrible fold. Raise 80% of time smoothcall 20% (so you drive people out with turn raise. )

[Diplomat]

This is a bad fold unless the bettor is extremely passive.

-Diplomat

[Schneids]

This is an easy raise.

If you are that afraid of the BB having a ten, see how he reacts to your raise. If he 3 bets, then consider folding if you think his play is straightforward enough that he'd three-bet you only with a ten, or by this point, call the three bet and then fold if the turn doesn't bring an ace, king, queen, or club. Likewise, if he calls, then go ahead and check behind on the turn and then call a river bet so as to minimize your losses if he does have a ten. However, a fold here is just a bad, bad idea. There's so many hands he can be betting with this flop that don't include a ten.

[Rushmore]

With the exception of one inexplicable response below, you might find a common thread here, so to speak.

Your fold is wrong. It is bad. It is wrong and bad.

The maniac could have 7/2. Forget him. Consider his hand random, and hope that he's not holding a ten. If he's lucky enough to have a draw, are you figuring you don't want to play an overpair against a gutshot from the maniac, and what looks like a jack, open-ender, KK, or QQ from the bettor?

If he's got a ten, you'll probably lose.

If you fold, you'll definitely lose.

If you raise, you'll be able to hold your head up and say "At least I am not the weak-tightest player on the face of the Earth."

Weakest-tight? I dunno.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise and not think twice about it (the pot is not big enough to justify waiting until the turn, I think, I'll try to knock out the gutshots now).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. The bet is excellent for you (if he doesn't have trips, obviously) because he's helping you clear out the field by raising. If he had flopped trips he'd likely checkraise with the PFR on his immediate left. I'd raise all the time in this situation.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm next. What now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise.

[nykenny]

i would have raised.

[ZeeJustin]

I disagree with those suggesting a smooth call. The pot is already decent, 5 big bets. You shouldn't want to wait until the turn to build the pot. You want those draws to fold now, and the best way to get them to do that is by raising the flop.

[sweetzer]

With ten bets in the pot, by all means raise on the flop and make it two bets for anyone else to draw. If someone reraises then they likely have a ten. Your fold is certainly questionable, and I certainly hope that you didn't show your cards. In hold'em it's a lot easier to miss a flop than to hit it, and with two tens out, there are only two left. You have two aces which cuts down on the possibilites of AT. If someone has a KQ draw, then you hold two of their straight cards.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
Good discipline I say! Congrats, pro move all the way! 8)

[/ QUOTE ]
it was a terrible fold. when are people going to learn that pros don't make their money on dumb folds?

[34TheTruth34]

If I was in the big blind in the given situation, the only hands I'd bet out on the flop with are those that contained a jack (or AA-QQ assuming that I had one of those hands and didn't three-bet BTF). If I had a huge draw I'd check-raise the flop. If I had a ten, I'd definitely wait until later to get my licks in because I can count on the maniac to always bet or raise for me.

Of course, maybe the BB doesn't think or play the same way I do. Maybe he's just betting his hand and you only have two outs, but I just wanted to show you how it's very possible that he doesn't have a ten.

So, as you can tell, I think folding is horrible. I'm not totally sold on raising, though. I think it's close between raising the flop and waiting to see the turn card to determine how to better play the hand. What I'd really like most is to see what everybody else is going to do (ah, the downfalls of early position). Then if a card like the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif comes on the turn and the BB bets out, you can raise. However, a card like the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif coming off will make you wish you didn't raise. This is not really the type of board that players would call for one bet but not two. If they're gonna call on the flop, they're gonna call. Also, you don't want the maniac to fold in the very likely event that you do have the best hand.

[Gabe]

Sometimes when I have AA and the backdoor flush draw I’ll wait to the turn to raise. Also, when a pair comes on the flop and I have AA, I’m usually not afraid of giving a free card, because now someone with a pair can’t make two pair to beat me. However, with this hand, the pot is pretty big and there are other possible weak draws that I’d like to see fold. I’d probably raise on the flop. Besides, the BB most likely has a J and is hoping you’ll raise to protect his hand. It would be neighborly to oblige him.

[Gabe]

Woo, dude that’s out there. Maybe you’re happy because, as it turned out, you would’ve lost the hand. There’s guys out there that play J2 and win a big pot, so they keep playing J2 and lose a lot of money. I think if you keep folding AA for one bet, on flops like that one, you will too.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Five of us see a flop of
JcTcTh (note the two clubs)


[/ QUOTE ]

I did notice the clubs, that why I say "Ugh" /images/graemlins/frown.gif

If you didn't have the A /images/graemlins/club.gif, it's a better fold. But you've got the Ace of trump - even if someone hits the flush on the turn, you've still got 11 outs against them on the river...

PS If he was a true maniac, why didn't you limp-reraise preflop?

[GuyOnTilt]

With the table you described, I think this is a definitely limp-reraise preflop. You said the maniac 3-bets with just about any 2, so he'd probably raise with any 2 as well. And since the others are all trying to get the maniac's money, you'll definitely get some loose cold-calls, or loose 3-bet isolation attempts. I don't like the open-raise. Limp.

GoT

[MD_]

Everybody that responded to this post and everybody that I talked to about it said I made a horrible fold and most said I should have raised. I'm really not weak tight at all, but just this one time I decided to fold my aces early. As it turns out two blanks came off and nobody had a ten: I would have won the hand. The flop bettor had JQo. I was just trying to avoid having to fold after putting several more bets into the pot and thinking, "damn, if I'd just folded right away..." Lesson learned.

-MD

[MD_]

I won 300 this session.

-MD

[elysium]

hi md
i never make this fold, but it's not awful. the board is compact, the BB is betting into a solid with a raiser behind him.....it's not awful. the only thing though is that the pot was raised pre-flop. i need to know more about the BB. there is a player that you can fold to here, but i don't think that's what you were facing.