Going apesh*t in stud/8

[rtrombone]

10-20 stud hi/lo on Party. The game is very good, as usual. Lots of loose chasers who don't mind getting scooped.

3rd: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif brings it in.
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif calls.
I call with (9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
8 /images/graemlins/club.gif calls.
7 /images/graemlins/club.gif folds.
6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif folds.

4th: 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif bets.
I call with (9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
8 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif calls.
4 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif raises. A note about this guy. He's overaggressive and fishy. It's not unusual for me to scoop him. I've seen him complete with (KT)Q.
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif calls. Now I 3-bet. The other guy calls two cold. Fishy caps. Everyone calls.
Not as much of a read on the other guys in the hand, but they're almost certainly below-average.

5th: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif checks.
I bet with (9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif calls.
Fishy raises with 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif.
To make a long story short, it gets capped again.

6th: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif checks.
Fishy bets with 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif calls.
I call with (9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Other guy calls.

7th: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif checks.
Fishy bets with 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Now 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif raises.

I have (9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif(7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif). What's your play? Was I too aggressive or just right? Results to come.

[Vehn]

I would cap it up again on 6th.

I would utter my favorite expletive and coldcall on 7th and hope I don't have to coldcall 2 more.

[Diplomat]

Oooo this makes my stomach churn. This is where I get killed in split games. Ugh. Hard to tell if they are going to war with low hands, or if one has the wheel and is planning on scooping. I think you are F#$%ed here. I'm torn between folding and calling, calling only because the pot is rediculously huge. But I'd be pretty damn sure I was beat here, and would hate putting 40 bucks into the pot...folding cannot be that wrong.

-Diplomat

[Vehn]

You absolutely cannot fold.

[Diplomat]

I'm relatively new to stud, nevermind stud/8. Why?

-Diplomat

[Vehn]

Because the other guy with the obvious high hand is over aggressive and fishy and the pot is ridiculously big.

[rtrombone]

vehn is only partly right. As you mentioned in your post, Diplomat, it's impossible to know with absolute certainty what your opponents hold. They may be going for low, high, both, or, on Party, neither /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. The hands people have turned over...you're convinced they were going low all along, and instead they've got a full house!

So a raiser on 7th street may think he has a lock on the low and has put both his opponents on high hands, or vice versa. He raises for value. Alternatively, he may have a not-so-great high hand and put the bettor on a low. He's not sure what you have. He raises in an effort to force you to fold a hand like two small pair. (Maybe you were going for low and backed into them.) Yet another possibility is that he has a mediocre low and puts the bettor on a high hand. He raises if there's a chance you'll fold a bettor low that you've backed into. And if you call with another high hand, that's fine, too. You get the idea.

Because of the exposed cards in stud, you can represent a bunch of hands even though the last card is dealt face-down.

This aspect of river play also exists in regular stud, but to a much lesser extent. There, a guy may try it if he suspects the bettor is representing a much stronger hand than he actually holds, but doesn't think he has you beat. He raises in an attempt to win the pot with the second-best hand. The same goes for hold 'em. It's mostly a stud/8 thing, though. I suppose it can come up in omaha hi/lo, but not as often, because of the possibility of being quartered.

[Andy B]

I think vehn_ is right on both counts.

[rtrombone]

I cold-called the raise on 7th. The fourth player folded. Fishy guy now 3-bet. Raiser called. At this point, I felt that overcalling was like setting fire to a new twenty-dollar bill, but I did it anyways.

Fishy's hand: (3 /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif)4 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif(K /images/graemlins/club.gif)
Other guy's hand: (6 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif(A /images/graemlins/heart.gif)
My hand: (9 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif)9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif(7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif).

Here's what twodimes says about 4th street:

pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 9c 9s 9h kh - 3c ac 4c 5d - 6c 3s 4d ad / 7c 6s 8c 3d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
9s 9c Kh 9h 28772 383397 116603 0 0 0 0 0.412
Ac 4c 3c 5d 78928 91478 408044 478 236487 103197 18143 0.340
3s 6c Ad 4d 15723 24647 474875 478 213727 144187 18143 0.248

5th:

pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 9c 9s 9h kh as - 3c ac 4c 5d qc - 6c 3s 4d ad 5c / 7c 6s 8c 3d 3h
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 9c Kh 9h 0 290222 209778 0 0 0 0 0.290
Ac Qc 4c 3c 5d 53493 114413 384472 1115 96067 149522 63028 0.243
3s 6c 5c Ad 4d 72536 94250 404635 1115 340905 96067 63028 0.467

6th:

pokenum -7s8 9c 9s 9h kh as qh - 3c ac 4c 5d qc 2d - 6c 3s 4d ad 5c kd / 7c 6s 8c 3d 3h td
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 19656 enumerated outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 9c Kh Qh 9h 0 4212 15444 0 0 0 0 0.107
Ac Qc 4c 3c 5d 2d 12411 12634 6902 120 17550 0 2106 0.796
3s 6c 5c Ad Kd 4d 0 2690 16846 120 0 17550 2106 0.097

The third guy played it sneaky. He had a made low on 5th but just let Fishy and I get into a raising war. This was probably a good play, as I would not have kept raising had I put him on a made low. I actually put him on a diamond draw, which is why I slowed down on 6th. I didn't put Fishy on the wheel, of course, not with the two treys in the fourth guy's hand.

So capping it on 4th was clearly correct. The other streets are debatable.

Funny how the guy with the worst hand EV-wise can catch perfect and scoop. Goes to show that it's always best to have a hand with low potential in this game.

Don't worry, it wasn't long before Fishy redistributed his winnings to the rest of the table.

[Bill Murphy]

I think you have to raise on 3rd, esp. w/a low limper in and 3 lows and the bring in behind. Cap it up to 7th, where you cry call.