How do you guys deal with the suckouts in trny play

[Bluff1]

Over and Over again getting sucked out in key parts of the trny when your a huge favorite how do you cope with that. It seems I always get sucked out on. The last three out of 4 multiway tnrys on stars I go all in being a huge favorite late in the trny only to get sucked out on. I mean you can't really get up and walk way. Any tips in here? Dam that crap really pisses me off.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Bluff1,

You say "nice hand" and lose and go play another tourney.

That's all you can do. And when it happens, it does happen in bunches, in the weirdest possible ways you can imagine.

Tonight I've lost with KK (which hit a K-high flush) to A3os (A-high flush). Then I had AKs and hit an A-high flush on the flop with J-8-7 ... moved in ... other player had T9 for the straight flush. When it happens ... it happens. Oh well.

Cris

[Bluff1]

Sorry about that post everyone I was highly teed when my hand got cracked. Anyway I'm bluff and a newbie on the board don't hold my first post against me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif) I usually do say nh Cris just its been getting to me lately lol.

[DoctorJ]

If it helps any (and I'm guessing that it won't), this has been happening to me for 15 months fairly regularly, from B&M small-large tourneys to WPT satellites to online tourneys at PokerStars and Party. I try to keep my chin up and know that it's gotta eventually start performing according to the numbers (i've taught college statistics, dammit), but some nights, I really want to punch a wall!

I actually have started playing 80% cash games and 20% tourneys for exactly this reason, even though I think I'm better suited for tourneys and used to play the reverse (80% tourneys). In profitable cash games, when an idiot makes a play and busts your 4.5-to-1 favorite, you can simply wait for him to inevitably hand his chips back (hopefully to you). In a tourney, if it's at that pivotal hand, you may be busted or severely crippled, with little recourse.

I know that there will be other tourneys, and if you keep getting your money in as the favorite, you'll be in good shape. However, for those of us playing occasionally, it can be really frustrating - how often will I be on the bubble of a WPT supersatellite with KK vs 55 and all my chips in the middle?

Not sure where this is going, but it sure is cathartic...

I guess that my point is that it seems to me that good cash games are far less frustrating than the hit-and-miss nature of tourneys, even with the horrifically bad players that populate at least California B&M, PartyPoker and even PokerStars tourneys...

Cheers...

DoctorJ

[Eric P]

this is why the more chips youstart with the more it favors the better players. Becuase you DO NOT GO ALL IN. Not to say that you fold if you are put all-in. But MANY of the best players don't go all-in unless they have the nuts on the river. The more times you are playing for all your chips you are going to lose eventually. However if it is unavoidable then it is. I was on a horrible streak where i could never win, but then everything worked out and i won 4 satellites and cashed in 5 straight multi table tournies, then this weekend i got 4-outed and 2-outed and runner flushed... all on the bubble. When it works out you win when it don't ... you don't.

[PlayerA]

And if you're Cris Brown on Stars, you called my all-in re-raise with AQo to my AKs and hit your Q on the flop. Hehe.

Sometimes the victim. Sometimes the victor.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

The more it happens, the less it bothers you.

So, go out and suffer as much as possible, until you become desensitized to the pain.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[CrisBrown]

That was the first time in the entire game I'd seen two cards higher than 9. There was no way I wasn't going all-in on it.

In my last tourney last night, I finished 5th ... having caught exactly ONE pocket pair in the entire tourney (110 hands). I never had AK, had AQ only once, no AK, no KQ, no AJ, no JT, the highest suited connector I saw was 45. The one pocket pair (KK) came in the big blind and everyone else folded. I finally went out on ATs vs. K4os and, of course, two Ks fell on the flop. *shrugs*

When the poker gods don't want you to win, all the skill in the world -- and I don't have that much by any means -- is not going to make any difference at all.

Cris

[PlayerA]

No problem. Guess my point was that we all end up on both ends of sucks outs (like my KJs resteal against ATo). Anyhow, GG. Sorry to hear you finished on the bubble.

I liked FossilMan's response. Just got to go through it about 1,000,000 more times.

[CrisBrown]

Hi PlayerA,

Oddly, the bubble finish didn't disappoint me too badly. It was a $109 SNG and with absolute trash, I played my way to one step off the money and was ahead with the all-in on the last hand. I felt like I got maximum possible mileage out of the garbage the dealer was giving me, so I couldn't really be too disappointed. *shrugs*

Weird, huh?

Cris

[curmudgeon]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gifLaugh a lot! /images/graemlins/grin.gif
When you play with fish, sometimes you end up as fish food! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Fmonti]

I wish I could agree with Greg....but it doesn't seem to help no matter how many times you get sucked out on..One of the problems is many of the times it only takes 1 suckout to cost you money in a tournament...Luck certainly does play a large role in tournament play....

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It hurts me less and less each time, but the pain only goes down a little bit, and it hurt a lot to begin with, so I'm not saying it doesn't bother me at all to get sucked out on in a big pot.

I still have thoughts back to the 2002 WSOP, getting it all in preflop with AhQh vs. Tc4s for a T135,000 pot and losing. I'm sure that hand will haunt me forever to some degree.

But, as you get hit more and more often with certain degrees of pain, you do get more and more used to it. It used to tear me up to lose a few thousand dollars in one session of poker. Now, unless I felt I played poorly, it only bothers me for a very short while.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[curmudgeon]

Who was that /images/graemlins/crazy.giffish with T4o /images/graemlins/tongue.gif at the 2002 WSOP? /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Let's all have a big laugh /images/graemlins/laugh.gif at him and drag his name through the mud.... he deserves to be trashed. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well-known and well respected high stakes player Tony D. He made the final table that year, finishing 8th. He is also well-known now for laying down trip Js against Phil Hellmuth on the ESPN TV show about the 2003 WSOP. Phil has 77, KJx on flop. J on turn. Phil bets turn, Tony D raises with JT, Phil reraises, and Tony D folds. No flush or straight possible. Only KK, KJ, AJ, QJ, and xx (a pair matching the small card on board) beat Tony D, and there's no specific reason to suspect any of those. If I were sitting there, and thought Phil had me beat, I would have to expect him to hold KK and nothing else given the play of the hand.

In any event, he did make the last raise against me in 2002, and it was a big raise, so his play is not meritless. He put me to the test for all my chips, and I passed and failed at the same time.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[curmudgeon]

Hey, that is funny!
Tony D............ terrible laydown against Phil.... no balls.
He must have thought you were a good player, otherwise, he wouldn't have tried to bluff you down! You passed the test, no failure on your part at all. Sad that the cards betrayed you that time. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Now we have two good reasons to laugh at him! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[spike]

Cris,

Wasn't it you who rivered a boat against my nut flush on the very first hand of a $50+5 last night?

nh.

spike_tt

[CrisBrown]

Hi spike,

Yup, t'was I. I think it was the second hand, though, not the first.

Cris

[Wardfish]

First thing is to remember that even if you are one of the better players, in certain circumstances (eg. short-format tourneys, or against loose-aggressive players) your edge isn't as big as you might think.

Also, something I started doing about a year ago (though only for B&M tourneys) was to keep a record of my luck in big pots, based on when most of the money goes in.

There will usually be 3 or 4 key pots in a tourney where a big proportion of my chips are committed. I also keep track of whether I was the raiser or the caller. I record my EV% on the hand and the result.

Over time, I have found that luck has evened out almost exactly. Sometimes my hands have held up more than they should, sometimes less, and sometimes I have sucked out more than I should, sometimes less.

I also keep a check on how many times I am in-front (or getting sufficient pot odds) when I call a big chunk of my chips.

When I am behind, I do not worry too much if I gave the opposition a good chance to fold by raising. (At my local B&M my nickname is 'Rocky', due to my tight image, so I get away with quite a lot of blind-stealing).

If you look at the stats over a period of time, it is easier to put individual beats into perspective. It takes away the element of 'wonder' ie. "am I being unlucky or not?".

Hope this helps.

[SoBeDude]

you will find that most top tourney players prefer to play 'small bet' poker. This means they're not committing a big percentage of their chips to a pot 99% of the time.

You need to remember that QQ loses to AK almost half the time. So your survival All-in in this situation is a coin flip.

Now put yourself in that situation SEVERAL times in one tourney and the probability of you busting out goes WAY up, or you get extremely lucky.

A friend who made the final table at the Showdown at the Sands said he was all-in only once before he got to the final table, and that was with the pure nuts.

So try to play small bet poker like the pros.

-Scott