Preflop pot odds

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

I am trying to use correct pot/implied odds when determining whether or not to see the flop and I having a trouble determining what the correct apprx odds to use are.

For example I know that flopping a set with a PP is about 1:7. Does this mean that I need 7 bets before I see the flop with small PP or only that I want a implied pot odds of 1:7 meaning I want atleast 7 other bets in the pot by showdown.

Also what type of pot odds should I be looking for with a hand like A9s. I know I am looking for the flush but what about the odds of two pair or trips or the small possibility that the ace pairs and the kicker is good.

I have the same problem with the suited connnectors.

I know not to play these hands in early position and that I want a lot of callers, my problem arises from middle or late position with determining exactly how many callers I need in front of me and how many positions off the button I can be and still see the flop.

Right now I am erroring on the side of caution and very rarely playing these hands but I think I may be giving some EV with this approach.

Thanks in advance from your friendly neighborhood..oh wait wrong identity.

[stripsqueez]

implied odds are implied - they are not known

if you want to consider how good your pre-flop implied odds are then it is perhaps more relevant to consider who has limped than how many have limped

a statement such as "its right to limp with 22 in the cutoff with 4 limpers before you, but not after only 3" is bizarre in its desperation to reduce the answer to certainty rather than recognising the uncertain nature of the game - a consideration of your implied odds pre-flop is, in simple terms, estimating how much money you will win when your hand is the best hand - if 2 very loose passive players limp before you then the pot will likely be reasonably big as they can be relied upon to stick around till the end - if 4 tight players limp you might win the pot with a bet on the flop - you can apply much logic in considering your implied odds but ultimately even the best player has to guess

knowing the odds of hitting 3 of a kind in the flop holding a pocket pair is not a big help either - i reckon its something like 8/1 - that doesnt mean you need 8 limpers before you of-course, that is what understanding implied odds tells you - it also doesnt mean that you need to recoup 8 times your bet pre-flop when you win because you wont win every time it hits and those times will be expensive - all 8/1 tells you is that it happens often enough, and you win enough when it does happen, when the pot will be big enough, to make it worthwhile limping pre-flop, some of the time

i think that if you understand the theory behind implied odds then application of that theory is not something you can be effectively told or taught - its something you have to learn by understanding the nature of the game which accrues from playing the game

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[George Rice]

Flopping a set is 7.51:1. So you want implied odds of 7.51:1 or better. What this means is that you will want the combination of what is in the pot already, combined with the future bets of the other players on the future rounds, to be at least 7.51 times what it will cost you on the flop. So if it's three bets to you in a four handed pot it's not worth calling. You must consider the bet to you as well as the chances of getting raised.

When considering your implied odds, you must also consider that you might lose if you hit your set. So in a borderline situation, you should probably fold.

But implied odds aren't your only consideration. The size of the pair matters. If one or two players have limped in front of you, you might very well have the best hand and will certainly want to play. If you are the first in, in middle or late position you probably should enter with a raise--the higher the pair and the later your position the more you should raise.

As for Axs and suited connectors, I did some calculations which I frequently use as a guidline. For small suited connectors (like 65s) I want to see implied odds of 11:1. This takes into account the flush, straight, two pair, and trips. It takes into account floping a made hand as well as flopping a draw (including something like a gut-shot with a pair). Finally, I left some room to allow for making a hand and still losing. I'm guessing that that number is a little conservative. As the ranks increase in value the less implied odds you will need, as one pair is more likely to hold up--the ultimate being AKs as you are well aware.

For any two uncoordinated suited cards I want to see implied odds of 16:1, calculated similarly as above. Again, the higher the rank the better, not only because of the high pair holding up, but also because if you make your flush you are less likely to run into a bigger one. For Axs I would guess that implied odds of 8:1 or so should be enough. Which is why you normally don't want to play a hand like that up front, except in a loose passive game.

All of these hands are drawing hands, and as such, play better in late position when you can see where you stand in terms of number of players in the pot and whether or not the pot has been raised. And if you noticed, many bad players (in the good games) play these hands out of position and for multiple bets before the flop (not to mention staying with them too long), and this is where much of the profit in these games comes from.

As for giving up ev, if you give up a little that's okay. It's better than giving up a lot. And a side benefit is that your fluctuations will go down. As you gain experience you will get a better idea of where to draw the lines.