My first forey into 2/4 online play...please advise...Hand #3

[chesspain]

Same Party 2/4 table...I'm in the BB, and dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Folded around to the button who raises, I reraise, he calls.


Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, he calls


[Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

...hhmm, if he has any pair except deuces I'm still behind, but if he only has overcards I'm winning or chopping...I bet, he calls


[Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif] 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, he calls...Obviously, I had no idea where I stood, given his calling all the way...maybe I should have just checkfolded, although I thought that he could easily could have had only Kx or Ax himself...results below...
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button showed 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the higher two pair

[astroglide]

betting the river here is absolutely pointless. do you think a worse hand will call? do you think a better hand will fold?

[chesspain]

I actually thought that betting the river here was a value bet, since I thought it was possible that a Kx would call or that that a low PP or Ax might fold.

I would have been happy to check the river through, although I thought that there might be a good chance he would bet into me if I checked. Since I plan on checkcalling anyway, given the total lack of aggression he has shown, I figured I might as well bet, since I'm not afraid of a checkraise.

Do others think it was really a pointless river bet?

[nogan]

He played poorly to those two pairs, too much would have beaten him.

According to Lee Jones strategy you should have only called the raise prior to the flop, no reraised.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually thought that betting the river here was a value bet, since I thought it was possible that a Kx would call or that that a low PP or Ax might fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would Ax or a low pocket pair call this far and then fold on the river of a double-paired board?

[ QUOTE ]
Do others think it was really a pointless river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

McGee

[chesspain]

So then you're saying that checkfolding to a river bet is the correct play?

[chesspain]

Nogan,

For a new poster and probable newbie, you certainly seem rather arrogant. In my prior post you ridiculed me for making a checkraise when I actually raised a bettor, and here you're advocating only calling, rather than reraising, with AKo against a steal-raise. Rereraising PF with AKo is practically automatic from any position, and is always automatic headsup on a steal-raise.

Maybe you should read some additional books beyond Lee Jones and some more posts here before you give out any more advice!

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
So then you're saying that checkfolding to a river bet is the correct play?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I think check-calling is the correct play.

McGee

[me454555]

Check folding the river is probobly a better option. What hand can you beat? If he bets the river after you've shown that much aggression, he's probobly not on Ax and has some kind of pair or better. My guess is that w/66 he checks behind you and you save a bet.

[BigEndian]

[ QUOTE ]
Check folding the river is probobly a better option. What hand can you beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can beat a flush-draw that came up dead. Personally, I would check the turn sometimes as well. If you constantly fire away with your AK's that come up dead, you're probably losing money.

Just because you raise PF, doesn't entitle you to the pot. You're lucky he didn't raise the turn on a semi-bluff.

- Groove

[Hallett]

I agree the river bet did you no good. A weaker hand would have folded to your bet, and a better hand won't go away, and could raise you. I like to think "Only bet the river if I want to be called".
Doug

[Bob T.]

You have to bet the river with an unimproved A some of the time. This seemed ok to me.

[nogan]

chesspain, I belive it's impossible to accurately read a "tone" from a post. If you thought I was being arrogant, I apologize sincerely. You are right, I thought you had check raised the previous hand, and you hadn't. Your move was still wrong. You are the one that admits going on tilt, and that is suddenly very believable.

I am a newbie to online poker, though I've played in b&m for quite some time. I have a masters in math and understand more about odds than most. It is factoring in more of the human element that represents the holes in most of my game.

Sorry if I offended you. Now why don't you just go on tilt and give some lucky loose player some more of your money?

[coolhandsun]

Is this a hand you typically want to bet on the flop? I can think of a couple reasons why it would be a possibility:
1. To mix things up
2. Bluff? or otherwise show strength
3. Because you might catch a king or ace and the lp raiser probably doesn't have a 3, and at most a q, but this still isn't a value bet.

What is the real reason you would bet this? I know I would be tempted since its only a small bet and there's already 6 in there and since you've already re-raised pre-flop he might believe you have a queen.

But is this a bet you really want to make since the flop missed completely and you may be up against a queen(if he has a 3 he's on crack)? Are you hoping he'll call with an inferior hand? What hand could be inferior that he would have raised pf?

Just asking cause I can't figure out betting on a missed flop in early pos heads up. I thought bluffing wasn't all that useful in ll hold em.

I figure it couldn't be all that bad a play or else you'd be catching flak for it rather than the river bet.

Gavin

[AliasMrJones]

Bluffing is generally not going to work in no fold 'em hold 'em, but it can work in certain situations. Heads-up or three-way on a flop that doesn't hit anybody when you've raised pre-flop is one place where it can work. It is usually easier if you have position, though.

[Gomez22]

Chess - I may give too much credit where credit isn't due, but with AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ (all suited or not) if I put the last raise in the pot, I'm leading the betting no matter what when I have the chance. However, if I get a flop that doesn't help, and am called on the flop, I'll usually check/fold the turn. Just my random thoughts, though.....

'Mez

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet the river with an unimproved A some of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
unimproved ace king? no you don't.

you only 'have' to bet ANY TWO CARDS if you think you can get them to lay down. the times you can actually value bet ace king are few and far between.

[Bob T.]

If you never make thin value bets on the river, your opponents will quit making thin calls on the river.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
If you never make thin value bets on the river, your opponents will quit making thin calls on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
you're being retarded. this is online 2/4 he's talking about.

thin value bets can be made with pairs or better all the time. value betting high-card nuts is asinine 99.99% of the time.

[Joe Tall]

I think chess played it fine. Granted it is a very thin bet on the river, and I'd like rather bet than check/call check/fold.

[ QUOTE ]
thin value bets can be made with pairs or better all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I agree with.

[ QUOTE ]
value betting high-card nuts is asinine 99.99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I don't.

You know why? Do you understand that... [ QUOTE ]
this is online 2/4 he's talking about.

[/ QUOTE ] ???

Peace,
JT

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You're lucky he didn't raise the turn on a semi-bluff.

- Groove

[/ QUOTE ]

Why, then I would have folded like a cheap suit, without having to spend another bet /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

But if he doesn't actually have a hand, he'ld have to have pretty big balls to semi-bluff the turn, since practically any other PF raising hand besides for AK is continuing on to the river.

[Bob T.]

So far this week, I've got 'You're Wacko', and 'You're retarded', Do I hear Ugly?

[astroglide]

i play about 10,000 hands of 3/6 per week, collect singular hand histories for note-taking vigilantly, and i do not see people calling 'just to see it' REMOTELY enough to make ace king a value bet here (or anywhere else). the board is paired twice. betting the end is 100% wrong.

[Schneids]

For what it's worth, I have to agree with Astroglide here.

There's no way a better hand is folding on the river. If they were going to fold, it would have happened on the turn. A turn call here means they're committed to a river call, as well, 99% of the time. Check the river and hope for a chop.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
i play about 10,000 hands of 3/6 per week, collect singular hand histories for note-taking vigilantly

[/ QUOTE ]

And this means what to me?

[ QUOTE ]
the board is paired twice. betting the end is 100% wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not on what could be a possible steal raise from the button. A hand like KJ could be in call down here.

In fact, I'm sure I have played a hand in the same way.

[ QUOTE ]
enough to make ace king a value bet here (or anywhere else). the board is paired twice

[/ QUOTE ]

The King has no play. You have high card Ace w/2-pair.

[ QUOTE ]
betting the end is 100% wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying it's 100% wrong, is 100% wrong.

Peace,
JT

[lil']

I made this exact same bet against an opponent last night at 10-20. I thought the opponent was capable of calling me down with nothing but a face card. He folded.

When I make this bet my opponents usually fold, call and win, or call and we split. They rarely if ever call and I win, which is why I don't make the bet much anymore unless the opponent is right.

[salty]

I would have checked the river,I know its weak but the guy has played very passivly post flop so far and I would expect him to check behind here.I would then fold to a bet and save my chips for when I had caught something to bet with.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
i play about 10,000 hands of 3/6 per week, collect singular hand histories for note-taking vigilantly, and i do not see people calling 'just to see it' REMOTELY enough to make ace king a value bet here (or anywhere else). the board is paired twice. betting the end is 100% wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

People will call with worse hands. I've seen people call with King-high. I've been prepared to call with Queen-high once. On a double paired board like this, I got called by an opponent holding 22 and playing the board (something like (8,8,6,6,T). That hand was in a Bellagio 15-30 game.

However, there are more advantages than just getting called by a worse hand. People will not only call with worse hand but their also bad enough to fold better or equal hands. If you bet, bet, and bet, they will often give up on their Ace-rag because they thought they were just chasing an Ace. Chasing and folding is a popular pasttime among low-limit players.

Additionally, there's the advantage of not letting observant opponents know how you play your hands. I liked this simple line by Bob T.

[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet the river with an unimproved A some of the time. This seemed ok to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet here some of the time keep your opponents guessing. If you get called and show that you've been betting the worse hand all the way, adjust your betting accordingly for the next few rounds. If your opponent folds, you're going to have them guessing and perhaps a bit intimidated.

[Nottom]

You'd think that, but I get called by K-high or Q-high all the time in that spot if I try to bluff.

[Nottom]

woot! a Dynasty post. Hopefully it won't be another month before you share your insite with us poor SSers again.

[Dynasty]

I got a special request.

I'm still revoverying from the Red Sox lost in the ALCS and got caught up in a lot of non-poker reading after that.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
And this means what to me?

[/ QUOTE ]
easy to say when your rip quotes out of context, leaving off the most important part.
[ QUOTE ]
The King has no play. You have high card Ace w/2-pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
thank you, sherlock. try reading what's in the parentheses.

the bigger part of the point is that out of position, you're roughly 1.2 billion times more likely to induce a bet from a worse hand than you are to get one to call on this board.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
On a double paired board like this, I got called by an opponent holding 22 and playing the board (something like (8,8,6,6,T). That hand was in a Bellagio 15-30 game.

[/ QUOTE ]
small stakes are completely different from big stakes.

online play is completely different from b&m play.

sorry, online ss players don't chase down to the high card nuts on a board like this and fold /images/graemlins/frown.gif furthermore, observant opponents are few and far between in online ss , so image plays like this rate supremely low.

there is a ton more value in inducing here. they will call at a minimum with an ace or a better hand, and fold a worse hand an overwhelming majority of the time. it will not happen frequently enough to make betting correct, even accounting for the completely overvalued image aspect.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
small stakes are completely different from big stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Astro, do you think Dynasty was born and then played big stakes as soon as he was of age? Um, for some reason, I'd say no.

[ QUOTE ]
online play is completely different from b&m play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I 100% agree. The fact that it is online-poker does strengthen your arguement. I'm just coming after your 100% wrong statement because I KNOW that's not true.

[ QUOTE ]
sorry, online ss players don't chase down to the high card nuts on a board like this and fold

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't happen often but in this situation I feel it's still the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
so image plays like this rate supremely low.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's the right game, you can establish an image and bad players sure do take notes.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
easy to say when your rip quotes out of context, leaving off the most important part.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just was telling you the hard way that I don't need any credentials, just a straight up arguement. Coming out and saying I do THIS so I KNOW, is no way to discuss something.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still revoverying from the Red Sox lost in the ALCS and got caught up in a lot of non-poker reading after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Game 7 World Series tickets are still available. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

In Schilling I trust,
JT

[CrackerZack]

11 years younger, show's flashes of a young Pedro, and he'll be a Yankee for 10 years if he can handle the pressure. I'm really really really gonna miss Nick Johnson, he'll be something very special if he can stop breaking bones since he heals like Samuel L. Jackson in unbreakable, but this is wonderful.

Bring it on baby.

[Bob T.]

Since the central division has about the payroll of the Yankees, as a midwest guy, I will cheer for whoever wins the Central, and especially for the Twins, whoever they have after the off season.