Raising in shorthanded

[Batman]

It seems like if I raise pre-flop and I bet again on the flop and turn, the players are much less likely to fold than if I just called preflop. They seem to keep calling more. Do you think this is true?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think this is true?

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends.

[all_aces]

I'm with Ulysses on this one. It depends. That's an impossible question to answer. However, I will say this: 'it depends' on your table image, and 'it depends' on whether or not your opponents are capable of folding middle or bottom pair in light of that image.

Personally, my raises get a good amount of respect, as I tend to show down 'raise-worthy' hands. These hands include 44, A6s, AK, K9s, etc... Basically your typical roster of shorthanded 'good starting hands'. So, unless my opponents don't know this about me, or don't care, they usually fold the turn.

So I will always bet the turn, regardless of whether I've hit anything or not.

Also, I raise with 35s occasionally, for obvious reasons. Last time I did this I hit a bizarre straight that nobody put me on. The pot was pretty big, I assume because at least one of my opponents made 2 pr which they figured would beat my 'obvious' AA.

Regards,
all_aces

[soda]

[ QUOTE ]

Personally, my raises get a good amount of respect, as I tend to show down 'raise-worthy' hands. These hands include 44, A6s, AK, K9s, etc... Basically your typical roster of shorthanded 'good starting hands'.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a joke?

Anyway, intentionally funny or not, I got a good laugh. Thanks...

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have found that if I raise the BB from the SB and bet the flop, the BB will call more often than if I limp in and then bet the flop. This is my only limp play really, from any other position, I haven't noticed a significant difference.

soda

[all_aces]

No, it's not a joke.

I forgot to say open-raising. I don't know if that makes it less funny for you. And I don't mean to insult your play, as I'm sure you didn't mean to insult mine, but... if you aren't open-raising these hands and then betting the flop regardless of what falls, you aren't aggressive enough for 5 max games imho.

Many times your opponent will fold to a bet on the flop if you raised preflop unless the flop hits them. I'm talking about heads-up situations for the most part. I mean no disrespect, but I play 5 max 25 50 approx. 8 hrs a day and I win, a lot. The stuff I've been talking about is part of the reason why.

Regards,
all_aces

[soda]

I'm pretty sure you did say open raise.

The issue here is clearly the difference in games. The games that I play in (Party 6 max 10/20) and the games you play in (5 max 25/50) must play extremely different. Open raising in the Party games with most of the hands you mentioned most of the time would be a terrible drain on even the best player's BR. Of course, in your game, the players are sufficiently tight to make this the proper play.

I also do quite well in the games that I play in, TYVM, but you have me wondering about this 25/50 game. Where is it?

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

soda

[all_aces]

I'm sure you do very well too soda, I can tell by your posts. The games I play in can get pretty wild, but as is usually the case, the moves you make depend on the players you're playing. So, while I would open-raise most of these hands against most opponents, hoping to steal it preflop or on the flop, I would also fold these hands quickly against certain players.

But I'd still raise with them preflop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I play at pokerroom. The games there are as they are in most places... solid regulars with the occasional weak player coming in and leaving broke.

The key is to get to know the regular's game. And mix yours up all the time so they can't get to know yours.

Regards,
all_aces

[KSU78]

Yes, I tend to agree with you, soda. I think I have played all_aces at Pokerroom.com. He is a little loose.

[kiddo]

Im not sure if it is a question about gamestructure. If you open in a shorthanded game - at least if its 5 players - you always raise (it is not this we are discussing?). Giving a free card with a pair like 44 or 66 is (yes, i know you know this) extremley dangerous.

Which of these hands doesnt you raise at Party P 10/20 and why dont you do it?

44, A6s, AK, K9s???

I dont discuss AK.

I would raise all these hands on button or in cutoff. Depending on other players style, and what these players are thinking about me, I would sometimes raise with A6s, 44 and K9s 3 and 4 of the button. (I like A6s best,44 least)

I almost never limp first in, but I like to do it with AA and KK sometimes (if they fold to often when you raise, specially first in, in late position) so sometimes I also limp with Axs, and some suited connectors (like QJs). I never ever limp with an offsuit hand.

If I was in late position and someone before me was limping preflop, I would raise A6s, K9s and AK, fold 44. (If blinds was very loose I would sometimes call with all 4 of theses hands second in.)

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
If blinds was very loose I would sometimes call with all 4 of theses hands second in.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I wouldnt limp with AK

[soda]

I'll take the 44 because it is the easiest hand to explain. I also think it is the weakest hand of the four for this specific scenario.

Raising 44 in the Party 6 handed games is wrong most times, because...

With this hand, you prefer to be heads up with position over 1 opponent or you'd like at least 5 opponents. So, clearly raising will not accomplish the second objective. What about the first?

I will talk about the Party 10/20 games as I have the most experience here, if your blinds are sufficiently tight that they will fold often enough, then by all means - raise away.

From the button - Raising 44 here is bad if and only if both blinds call often enough. The problem in the 10/20 game at Party is that both blinds call frequently. So, always raising hands like this on the button will make them call even more frequently, which is the opposite of what you want. When they both call you are in deep trouble the 6 times out of 7 you do not flop a set.

So, even from the button, I do not always raise 44. I will occasionally open raise if the blinds are sufficiently tight. This is probably close to 50% of the time in the 10/20 game according my own personal criteria.

From the cutoff - open raising 44 here is much more dangerous and less profitable than from the button. You have another person yet to act and raising from this spot will very seldom win you the blinds even with a squeaky tight image. Often, the pot will be three way and sometimes even 4 way. If the button is aggressive at all and will three bet you with a wide variety of hands and is a good player, then you will do well to muck this hand 90% of the time or more.

Open raising with 44 in any earlier position is a poor play from a profit standpoint in most of these games (all?) and should be done only to mix up your play. If you raise this hand UTG, which I see many people doing and only the button calls you (a seemingly good result given the alternatives), you have managed to get the hand heads up. Great. But, you are out of position with a terrible holding. For myself, with my level of play, even this relatively good outcome is probably not a long term profitable one. Given position and my rediculously poor holding of 44 an average player can outplay me (read - earn more money) with any reasonable holding and certainly any cards that are worth calling a raise with. At best I'm 50/50 out of position and at worst I'm a 4:1 dog to the river. And it is very difficult to tell where I am unless I've flopped a set.

Those are my thoughts on this hand.

soda

[all_aces]

This is one of those posts that is so useless I almost decided not to bother responding to it. However curiosity got the better of me.

What is your username at Pokerroom? Don't worry, I think you'll find from my previous posts that I have enough class not to insult people's play by using their names.

The dangerous thing about these forums is that some guy who you don't know can anonymously say that he thinks you're too loose. Your first thought is to ignore this comment altogether, because it's so ridiculously vague and completely anonymous.

But then I think on some level you think to yourself: "Gee, maybe I really am too loose..." I average 5K/week cashout, and I'm thinking of changing my game. Not smart. Dangerous, in fact.

Anyways, what is your username? Also, did you play against me in the last while at the 25-50 tables, or was it before that at lower limits?

[all_aces]

Very thoughtful post soda, and I agree with you on all points. I'd like to add one more comment if I may, and that is about the texture of the game at the time. As you know, the same 5 players can play wild for 10 minutes, then all of a sudden everyone's folding preflop to the BB for 10 minutes, etc...

So to your criteria I would also add the consideration of whether the game is playing tight or loose at the time.

Regards,
all_aces

[KSU78]

I play short-handed games at Pokerroom.com all the time. I have played against you at $25-50 and at lower limits. I was just offering my perspective of your post. However, your subject line is a little out of whack.

It is interesting what people raise with at Pokerroom. One of the best first-in raises there was T8s UTG. I will only play that hand in the blinds. In fact, two of the four hands you mentioned in your post above, I routinely muck unless there are less than 5 dealt hands.

[all_aces]

"In fact, two of the four hands you mentioned in your post above, I routinely muck unless there are less than 5 dealt hands."

OK. Next time just say that. No need to get personal.

[KSU78]

There are two different schools of thought with raising in shorthanded games. The first one is always raise when first-in. The second is raise only with starting cards that warrant raises. I am one to align myself with the latter. Some starting cards require help. Some don't. Is it wise to raise with drawing hands pre-flop? Should you limp with QQ or JJ?

Let me use T8s UTG as an example. There are 16 cards that are going to beat that hand if it does not improve. It is also a one gapper which reduces the chance of making a straight. If the flush comes, there is a good chance of still being second best, particularly if the board is a 4-flush. Raising with this hand UTG is only begging for trouble. I see nothing wrong with limping if I really wanted to play this hand. When a player limps UTG, the pot usually remains unraised. I use T8s only as an example. I personally will muck it except for when I have it in the blinds and I am getting proper pot odds to play it.

Likewise, limping with QQ or JJ is sometimes a good play in short-handed games. If a pre-flop raise comes, re-raising will tend to narrow the field to two players with dead money in the pot.

The hands that are troublesome in short-hand games are AX, AXs and small pairs. I like to find tables where players are raising with these cards. Although these hands can win without improvement, if they go to the river, they stand a good chance of being beat. Again, raising with them is usually going to attract the type of hands that will beat them at the river.

[KSU78]

My opinion was, is, and will be your play is loose. Period. If it bothers you, either toughen up or go on tilt or both. Now that is personal.

[all_aces]

You still haven't told me your pokerroom username. Would you like to tell me what it is so I can trash your play on a public forum?

No, didn't think so.

It's much easier to pretend to be some kind of authority on other people's play when nobody knows who you are, isn't it... lol. Keep up the bravado, big guy. It's pretty easy to be brave and knowledgable from where you're standing.

As for going on tilt, I just don't do it. I leave the table after a few bad beats in a row, go for a walk, watch TV, whatever... and return when I'm thinking more clearly. You will probably tell everybody that I go on tilt all the time, but I think that the more you talk the less value your opinion has.

ps: If you did tell me what your username is, I still wouldn't talk about your play here, despite the fact that you're being a dick. I really think it's kind of a cheap thing to do. And the fact that you do it tells me a lot about you.

[stripsqueez]

interesting bits and pieces in your post KSU78 - i am firmly in the "never open limp" school - i am also in the "never over limp school" - your statement that limping under the gun is likely to result in an unraised pot may have some validity but not if i'm at the table

limpers annoy me - i am of the view that if you limp you are too stupid or chicken to make the blinds pay to see the flop and the blinds must always pay - there is no greater crime than the BB not paying to see a flop of 772 when he holds 72o

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[34TheTruth34]

If you really made 5K a week, you wouldn't care what some anonymous clown says about your game. Nor would you be thinking about changing it, because obviously whatever you're doing is working.

[KSU78]

I think it is important to mix it up and play the same hands differently. Keep'em guessing. It seems like the more I play, the more I use position and game theory to mix up my game. I love to punish an indiscriminate raiser with a call-raise when holding a big pair.

[all_aces]

OK you're right. I don't average 5k a week.

...

Actually I do. Whatever. I have no way to prove it. I went to the bank today and deposited 5k, just in time to get another cheque this evening for another 5k deposit tomorrow. But I have no way to prove it, so whatever.

This is ridiculous, and you're right about one thing: I don't care anymore. I'm done with this thread, and will turn my attention towards more productive discussions. I just thought it was kind of cheap to anonymously take shots at people's play here, that's all.

[soda]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really made 5K a week, you wouldn't care what some anonymous clown says about your game. Nor would you be thinking about changing it, because obviously whatever you're doing is working.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter how much you make, you can always fix holes in your game and make more.

One thing I'd like to add to this is that the players who are perceived as "too loose" in these shorthanded games are almost always better players (read: make more money) than the tighter ABC players. I'm making this distinction among the good to great players in the game, not the guys seeing 40%+ flops.

That T8s raise UTG could have been made by the best player in that game. The fact that you chose to write about that says to me that you are not the best player in that game.

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

soda

[soda]

Well put and very true. Adjusting to these nuances within the game is very difficult for me to do while playing more than 2 games. Something to work on for sure.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

soda

[soda]

I think if we played together, the first thing I'd want you to see is me raising T8s UTG. I'm sure this "crazy" play would pay off very well over time.

soda

[34TheTruth34]

I went to the bank today and deposited 5k, just in time to get another cheque this evening for another 5k deposit tomorrow

blah blah blah


I don't care anymore. I'm done with this thread, and will turn my attention towards more productive discussions.

you're welcome.

[34TheTruth34]

it doesn't matter how much you make, you can always fix holes in your game and make more.

you're right, but if it ain't broke, dont fix it, right? If you're making 260,000 a year, you probably don't need to adjust your game one bit. And I expect that at a certain point, such as making 100BB a week at a 25/50 game, any changes to your game could potentially do much more harm than good. Wouldn't you agree??

[KSU78]

The reason that I chose T8s is that it has a negative expectation for all positions in a short-handed game. Is it wise to raise with a -EV? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me. In other words, if I were to raise with T8s for all eternity, I will eventually go bust. Isn't the game of poker about the long run? 44 and A6s are basically break-even starting cards in a short-handed game. Probably the best time to play them is when you're cards are running hot. I am quite content to muck them because do not add to my take-home over the long run.

[KSU78]

[soda]

No, you can always make your game better. A player winning $5000 per week, can absolutely make changes in his or her game to take home $5500 a week playing the same amount and limits.

We are so far from perfect and this game is so incredibly complex that very few people ever put enough effort into it to truly maximize their profits.

Of course, one making $5000 per week can probably spend his or her time relaxing instead of worrying about a measly 500 bucks extra. So, the real question would be, can he or she improve his or her game to earn, say an extra 50% more or $7500. That might be worth the effort.

soda

[soda]

Interesting that you write this hand off as -EV. Surely it is a marginal holding, but a good player in a good game, can play this for +EV.

Add to it the extra action if you choose to play it and other players label you as "too loose" or "plays weak hands sometimes" and even at a break even level, you are making more money by playing this hand.

soda

[brianmarc]

I agree with much of your analysis. Follow up: What then would your minimum pair requirements be to open-raise in a 6-handed game? I use the following:
UTG: 77
CO: 66
L: 55
B: 22

Yeah, I know the 22 may sound weird - but the idea is that the blinds, if they play, can be bluffed out if they check post flop. If they bet and you don't hit, you fold. To make this strategy work you need rep as a TA; so sometimes I will simply check this hand and take the free card. If I hit the set, great; if not, my opponents know I am not on auto-pilot post flop. A further consideration: In many of my games someone will try a check raise here, assuming that the pre-flop raiser will automatically bet. (This does occur in about 90% of my games). By checking you can force the others to make their moves, and, if you don't hit, fold. Note: This latter situation is clearly more relevant when there are more than the blinds and the button involved).

[creedofhubris]

I have played with all_aces in a pokerroom 10/20 10-person ring game, and his play seemed strong to me. I don't remember any moves that struck me as too loose.

[KSU78]

Occasionally, 72os wins. Sometimes slowplaying will win more money than betting it out right.

I understand what you are saying. But I don't think it is quite that easy. First, you need to decide to choose to play it. Second, you have to decide how to play it. Third, eventually, you have to show it.

Deciding to play it requires the use of game theory. How to play it should require game theory as well. But showing it is a little different. We are talking about a short-handed game with, supposedly, solid players.

Now, if you can put someone on tilt with it, sure. Why not?

But that is not what we're talking about here... we're talking about routinely playing it.

[KSU78]

It is nice all_aces has friends. He needs them but be sure not to say anything that he doesn't think already about himself.

He made a post above that was contrary to the way that I play and what I believe. He got defensive that I said his play was a little loose. What he posted confirmed what I thought. That is an opinion. It is mine and it will go without redacting. It is unfortunate that he decided to take it to another level and claim it is personal and that I was trash-talking his play.

Also notice that "a little loose" has becomes "too loose".

Personally, I don't care if anybody thinks whether my play is tight or loose. It will differ from time to time. But what bothers me is how some one can profess to raising first-in with raise-worthy starting cards just because they want to play the hand or think they should play the hand. Raise-worthy is kind of like beauty, it is in the hand of the beholder.

I think I know something about this game. It pays my rent and all my living expenses. It just bothers me when some one wants to post something that I don't think is right. There are a lot of new people playing poker. Some of those players have turned to this forum to learn more about the game. They deserve to hear a difference of opinion. And I absolutely sure that some one out there has learned something in this thread or at least caused them to rethink some of the paradigms.

And lastly, all_aces is going to get more action. Isn't that something he would want?

[soda]

I'm not talking about routinely playing it. Well, not in the sense that I routinely call or raise with it.

Most times I play T8s, I muck it.

soda

[soda]

[ QUOTE ]


And lastly, all_aces is going to get more action. Isn't that something he would want?

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends entirely on the type of game it is.

If, as I suspect, open raising with K9s or A6s or 44 is a profitable play in his game, then, no, he probably does not want more action. These hands are really only profitable in large multiway pots (clearly not happening) or if your opposition is too TIGHT and folds too often either preflop or on the flop or turn.

I vote for the latter to be true in his particular game. My guess is that people just fold too much when he raises and thus he can make a killing just running over the table. If his opponents give him more action, they will essentially have appropriately adjusted their play. He will then need to adjust, which usually involves some type of learning curve and costs money.

So, my guess is that he does not want more action overall in these games. But, I've never seen it and never played it in and it's just a guess.

soda

[kiddo]

Good post.

As I said in my post, 44 is the weakest of the hands we are discussing, and as you, I really dont like to play the low pairs, you all always flopping overcards.

I havent played higher then 5/10 at Party Poker. Isnt the players at 5/10 at bit weaker then at 10/20? That is: its a bit easier to win with your 44 if noones is hit by flop and you dont always loose as much when you are behind?

I said in my post I always play 44 on button and in cutoff. That isnt true. And the main reason to play it is not to make $, it is to get some action on your other hands, because I normally play tighter then the others (seeing 30% of flops) and I dont want them to think I only play the nuts. I want them to think I am one in the crowd. I dont want them to think about me at all.

[CORed]

Interesting: I will open limp early with hands like small pocket pairs, suited connectors, Axs, if the players behind me will let me get away with it frequently. If not, I will fold such hands early. Of course, I will raise to isolate people who try to limp in front of me. However, if the players to my right are foolish enough to let me limp early, I will take advantage of their mistake.

[LKJ]

Man, I'm just happy to see someone else express annoyance at open-limping. I'm annoyed for all of the same reasons you expressed. When someone open-limps in front of me, I feel like they're just getting in my way or something. On the other hand, I do greatly appreciate the open-limp when I'm sitting in the BB with garbage...
Okay, that was nice news...if I'm nuts for getting annoyed by it, at least I'm not alone.