Correct to call?

[Michael Emery]

I thought I'd share a hand that I just played in a $30-$60 game at the Taj. It was 8 handed and for those that don't know has a $5 ante and a $10 bring-in. I ended up winning this hand and while comments on my play are welcome I'm posting this hand to pose a question that I will ask at the end. The hand went as follows:

2d-brought it in
3c-calls
As-raises
Jh-folds
ME (Ad Qs) Ah I make it $60
Tc-calls
Ks-calls
6d-folds

The bring-in then folds and the 3c who limped called. Then the A(s) (who is a very tight player by the way) makes it $90 and I cap it with everyone calling the whole way.

4th st.: 3c catches an offsuit 8. A(s) catches a 9c. I catch the 3d. The Tc catches an offsuit 5. And the Ks an offsuit 7. The A(s) leads out and I just call along with everyone else. My thinking here is that since everyone called the $120 on 3rd., I'm not going to knock anyone out with a raise here. But I know it's possible a 5th. street raise will do the trick.

5th st. boards look as such:
(XX)3c 8d Qh
(XX)As 9c Js
ME (Ad Qs) Ah 3d Tc
(XX)Tc 5h 4h
(XX)Ks 7c 2c

The original Ace leads out and this time I raise. However, the only hand that dropped was the 3c who I'm guessing started with a three-flush. The Tc and Ks call the $120.

6th st.: I make open 3's and nobody else catches anything special. I bet out and everyone calls.

7th st.: I check and my Aces and three's are good. The player with the A(s) shows his hand, an unimproved pair of Aces.

Now for my question:

When I was raking in the pot the tight player with A(s) said something that made me think. He asked the other two players "How the hell could you guys call on 3rd. knowing that at least one if not both of us had Aces?" They gave no response, but then I thought of how a three card strait is a favorite against two of the same pair on 3rd. So who thinks they (the Tc and Ks) were right to call on third assuming they had big pairs like it looked like they did from the play of the hand?
Notice that the Tc may have been trapped in a way by wanting to play Tens against likely duplicated Aces, but not expecting the Ks to call behind him. And remember he already called $60 before the Ks came in.

All comments welcome

Mike Emery

[patrick dicaprio]

the pair of tens should probably have folded from the outset. once it is raised and reraised by you he has to call two bets and is certainly well beaten at that point.

the kings probably should have called on third but should have folded once you made an open pair. the point of playing here if you are the K is that the others cant make trips and you know what they have so that if they get two pair you can safely fold. so why did he call??

by the way your play was pretty good so dont listen to a guy who waould call with a beaten pair of tens in a five way pot. i like the nonraise on fourth. there was a good chance you had the highest kicker so the play is to knock the others out. so well done i think.

Pat

[Diplomat]

If they had large pairs they both played there hands poorly. By 4th (hell somewhere on third) it should become obvious that one or both of you have aces. If they both called your raises with just pairs in the whole, they played their hands quite poorly.

I've got a feeling that the K may have had two clubs in the hole, and the T may have had two hearts in the whole, to go with their pair. Either that, or they had straightflush combinations (two-flushes) of those suits. It's the only way I can make sense of the 5th street calls.

-Diplomat

[Andy B]

I dinked around some on twodimes with this. In one scenario, I gave the Kings a suited Queen kicker and the Tens a suited Nine kicker, and I found that the Tens actually became the money favorite. This makes a certain amount of sense. The winning hand is going to have to improve, and the Tens have the best chance to improve (the Kings' Queen kicker is duplicated by your kicker, which I hadn't realized when I set that one up). Nonetheless, I don't think I'd call two bets cold with one pair unless one of my opponents was known to get seriously out of line, and given your characterization of the other Aces guy, I don't think that's going to be the case. The problem is that the guys with the other pairs can never know when one of the pairs of Aces hits his kicker, and may find himself calling several bets when he's drawing very thin. Pairsy hands are a lot better in two- and three-way pots than they are in four-way pots anyway.

I might have declined to cap it on third street. Once you've got a dozen small bets in there, the pot is certainly worth winning. Your best chance of doing that is by keeping the pot somewhat smaller and raising on fifth. Even if you are behind, it is worth it to knock players out. I don't think you want to be playing a big pot with a somewhat dead hand.

[Michael Emery]

Andy,

Excellent point about possibly not capping it on 3rd and making the pot so large. It was one I was going to bring up myself after I got some feedback. I wasn't sure anyone would find that mistake. After the hand was over and I started analyzing how I had played it I thought of something in 7csfap's titled "An important concept borrowed from razz".
I'm sure you've read it as well, as it basically says if you are sure you hold the better hand early raising may not be worth it, as you just make some of the later rounds a "crapshoot" as your opponents are now correct (b/c of the size of the pot you created by raising) to keep taking cards off. Good analysis.

Mike Emery

[Ed Miller]

It seems to me that you should bet the river. Despite the fact that your hand is 100% obvious, the pot is huge and people may make crying calls anyway. Then again, I don't play stud, so the down river cards may make this bet poor.

I also think that not capping on 3rd street against another probable pair of Aces is probably your best bet. Your hand is dead, after all.

[Michael Emery]

I don't think a river bet is in order here. You said your not a stud player? I'm guessing your a hold'em player? In hold'em you have the benifet of seeing your opponents last card, I don't. If I bet out here and it's folded around to the A(s), if I'm him I'm raising if I've made a better Aces-up. And notice that I have Aces and Threes and any card he catches to pair will be better. Also I was concerned with the King And Ten calling me on 6th street when I made my open pair. I figured there's a good chance that they have a draw (most possibly a 4-flush w/two suited cards in the hole). Again, I'm only getting raised.

Mike Emery

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Then again, I don't play stud, so the down river cards may make this bet poor.


[/ QUOTE ]
i believe it's poor too.
[ QUOTE ]
I also think that not capping on 3rd street against another probable pair of Aces is probably your best bet. Your hand is dead, after all.

[/ QUOTE ]
agree. another reason is that now the other A might not bet to you and you will lose the chance to raise once u have the lead on 3rd street.

[Andy B]

I will value-bet Aces-up on the end more than almost all of the people I play against. In this spot, though, I think you have to check. Your hand should be obvious to all concerned, so a player with two pair may decide to save that last bet. Better hands won't fold. All the other pair of Aces needs to do is hit one of his side cards to beat you, and most of them are going to be higher than a Trey. Plus you have two other players to worry about. Your check might induce a bluff, although I tend to doubt it in this case. If you bet and get raised, you may throw up.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I am not sure anyone made any brilliant plays by assuming they were a favorite over duplicated aces. With a game that (at least by this hand) looks pretty loose, I doubt there were a bunch of sklansky-duplicate-genius types playing against you.

I like the 7th street check. Everyone knew what you had, so there is no value in betting.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If he had made say a hidden aces and tens (don't remember the boards) then betting what APEARED to be an obvious aces-and-treys would be fine. But I agree, and I had already said so, it's not a good idea to bet aces and treys on the river here. You MIGHT get a crying call, but more likely you'll either get raised or they'll fold worse hands.

al