Tough JJ hand

[Clarkmeister]

20-40 - Loose fish who LOVES to checkraise postflop open limps in EP. Total unknown raises on the button. Hero 3-bets from the SB with JdJh. ABC coldcalls from the BB, Fish calls, Button 4-bets, Hero calls, ABCBB calls, Fish calls. 4 to the flop for 8BBs.

Flop: Qd Ts 6h. Checked to the button who bets, Hero calls, BB calls, Fish calls. All 4 to the turn for 10BBs.

Turn: 8s. Hero checks, BB checks, Fish checks, Button bets, Hero and BB call. Fish folds. 3 to the river for 13BBs.

River: 3c. Hero checks, BB checks, Button bets, Hero folds, BB calls.

Thoughts?

[mike l.]

you may as well just fold on the flop because even if you hit a J you have to worry about AK. so fold the flop.

[rigoletto]

I think the flop is a fold or a checkraise in that priority. Since hero stayed in he should call the river.

[karlson]

Hm. Indeed not easy.

I think I'm with Mike. Folding on the flop seems very reasonable, especially since a check-raise behind you is quite possible.

Once I got to the turn, though (with no one raising), I'm going to checkraise. Quite likely that the ABCBB will fold KQ or something like this, and I may have button beat. If not, well 6 outs isn't bad. I probably won't get 3-bet unless he button has QQ. I take it the people behind me would have raised the flop if they had me beat.

Once I played the turn this way, I could see a similar argument for a river raise, but I would be more hesitant. I could see an argument for a crying call, so I'm open to suggestions.

All in all, I fold on the flop, and hope that button was not a maniac.

[Gabe]

I don't like it. The folding on the river after all that calling I really hate.

[Mackie]

Agreed. Fold the flop or call the river.

[ACPlayer]

c-r the flop. Definitely not a river fold.

The way it was played, if i was the button i would have hero on AK maybe suited and the other two on middle pairs or draws. I am definitely betting AK, AJ, 99, JJ, A-T etc on the button with this action. All those hands hero beats.

[Clarkmeister]

Button turned over 77 and beat the BB's AsKs.

I think the flop was the key juncture. I think Hero needs to either checkraise the button, or bet out and force BB and Fish to react, taking away the threat that they are waiting to checkraise the button.

But I thought this was one of those "could do almost anything on any street" (except what was actually done) type of hands.

[skp]

I don't think that Hero played it all that bad. There are spots where I would play it the same way (to be sure, there are also spots where I would play it the way you suggest).

The thing here is that checkraising or betting out may cause the button to react in a way that further misleads you i.e. he could very well raise (or 3 bet) with AK and then follow it up with a bet on the turn with the intention of checking it on the river if he does not improve.

The river fold is interesting but again, can be safely done against several players that I play against i.e. they simply will not bet the river here without a Queen against two opponents on the river in a big pot.

I think that the title of your post says it all: "Tough JJ hand"...maybe Mike has the best answer, chcekfold the flop as even hitting a Jack on the turn or river is no bargain.

[ACPlayer]

Against any but the most predictable players the river fold is terrible. In this case the player was not presented as predictable.

A c-r on the flop will clear matters up against all but tricky aggressive players, but then you know who they are and can compensate.

Clearly also a fold on the flop is better than a fold on the river.

[andyfox]

Abdul has said that the best opponents to have are those that calls on the flop, call on the turn, and then fold on the river.

[andyfox]

No way this hand would have been played in such an unheroic fashion in L.A. There seem to be more Vegas players who consider call, call, fold a heroic course of action.

[mosch]

I've seen enough of your posts to know you're a much, much better player than I am, so I ask with all respect... what cards did you want to show up?

The two jacks give you trips but they give AK the straight after the flop, and any 9 the straight after the turn. Jc puts a 3flush on the board if it shows up at the river. If you thought you were fighting blown draws then the river bet should've been a routine call...

It's nice to see that even Clarkmeister can have an off hand (well, what appears to be one to me anyway). Thank you for posting it.

[mikelow]

[karlson]

Hmmm...note the use of the third person throughout.

[adios]

"The river fold is interesting but again, can be safely done against several players that I play against i.e. they simply will not bet the river here without a Queen against two opponents on the river in a big pot."

IMO many of these decisions presented on this forum boil down to how well you've read the players involved. FWIW with not much knowledge of the players involved, I would think that playing your possible best hand with some outs strongly would be a better way to go.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Button turned over 77 and beat the BB's AsKs.



[/ QUOTE ]

I read this and couldn't figure out what happened. I re-read the board. I did it again. I could not figure out why our Jacks lost to 77 or AK. Then I finally figured out we folded. Playing the hand this way and then folding on the river is horrific beyond belief.

[skp]

heh..that's good...Anyone know where the heck he has been?

[andyfox]

I saw him walking out of Commerce about 2 months ago. Don't know where he's been electronically though.

[nykenny]

[quote I would think that playing your possible best hand with some outs strongly would be a better way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
do u mean check raise the turn?

[GuyOnTilt]

I fold the flop. If not, I think you have to check-raise. You are most likely beaten on the flop with little chance of improvement vs. the unknown's 4-bet on this flop, and if not, then you will have no clue where you stand for the rest of the hand by just calling, and will likely make errors on the turn and/or river, as you did.

GoT

[SossMan]

[adios]

Yeah I think so due to the fact that there's a good chance that the button doesn't have a Q.