Unethical?

I thought up this angle last night.


You are heads up or perhaps 3-ways on the flop. You flop a flush draw or straight draw last to act.


First to act bets. Second to act calls. Now, raising here for a free card is the "standard" play, but its probably not demonstrably profitable. Calling, I'm sure is. But it would sure be nice if you could get the free card.


So, first to act bets, second to act calls.


You put out a call. Then a raise, saying noticeably, "Raise!". The dealer (and half the table) immediately call you for a string bet and retract your raise.


You likely get the free card on the turn.


Ethical or not?

No. Not ethical. It's a bs move.


Get shot in the Old West for that.

That is some smart thinking, it is unethical, but hey whatever works, but if someone catches on, you can be in trouble.


I think i'm going to try that, the next time I play.

Being that you conspired with forethought and malice to perform this heinous act of trickery, I would have to say it's unethical. Now if it were in fact an accident, as in you meant to try for the free card, but accidentally did not put forth the correct number of chips, it probably would be theoretically more profitable than if you had in fact raised. Still though, a more disturbing debacle than your proposal here I cannot recall...


;-)


Dave in Cali

David, did you really have to ask???


could be that you've been hanging around the pool halls too much.

the standard play is to raise for the free card... but raising with a certain amount of callers is raising for theoretical value. although there isnt any necessary move that is right, and raising provides for more variance, wouldn't it hurt you to not raise, therefore foregoing some of the value to be had from raising?

Trickery? At the card table? What a terrible thought!


I'm curious about why trickery of this sort would be considered unethical at a card table. The best part of the angle is that it is unlikely to even be realized (they will just assume you are an idiot who doesn't know how to raise correctly), and therefore unlikely to drive away bad players (the main reason to disallow angling).

i was laughin pretty good on this...you can always try it once...ive called a string bet on myself before . basically i had a brain freeze, but i never really thought of doin it purposefully. hahaaa


here's one that ive done twice, both accidents...i was in the BB and the flop was there. the dealer blocked the sb player who i thought folded pre flop. i was planning a checkraise, so i checked. the dealer told me to wait my turn and i questioned who was in. apologized for acting out of turn, so the gal says 'well ill bet then..' so the dealer points to me and i raise. got some looks on that one, ended up winnin the hand. but it was an honest mistake...the other time it happened the guy had his hand hidden so i didnt think he was in.


b

since we're sharing these stories, this was some time ago...


...while thinking about what to do (bet or check), I drummed my fingers on the table twice, then I bet. The next player exclaimed to the dealer "CHECK-BET???". The dealer hadn't seen me drum my fingers on the table, so he didn't know what to do. I admitted the error, and took back my bet. Very embarrassing!

My friend thought of this one a long time ago, and yeah its probably unethical but if it works who cares, they are the ones that chose to check to you on the turn. The main thing about this ploy is that you'll be able to use it once and then nobody will fall for it again- of course you can always do it again when you want them to bet into you on the turn but this seems like something that would rarely come up. Another problem is that this kind of play will build ill will amongst your opponents towards yourself. My idea is that you should use this play once and not more except when you are in spots where everybody will have for sure not seen you do this before.


Kris

If you tried that on me I'd come over the table at you!


...Oh wait, you're bigger than me...OK, angle away...


Actually a guy who must have seen you play tried a move like that on me the other day. We are heads-up on the flop. I bet my top pair, he raises, I re-raise putting him on a flush draw.


Turn is a blank, I reach for my chips to bet, but he has already bet out of turn. The dealer says "You're not first to act sir" and I check to him as he is pulling his bet back. He then tries to check and I protest that his bet must stand. There is no way I'm letting the turn get checked around. The floorman made his bet stand and I raised. He called and hit his damn flush on the river.


See ya,

smallfry


PS: Do you guys still play Tuesday tournaments?

interesting thing is that it really is an honest mistake that can happen, and nobody will know the difference. they won't catch on...

it may not be totally ethical but since they can accept the raise and call it or reraise you could have downside. also no one would know as even if your hand was shown down it would look like a natural play.

most times you should raise here anyway.

This type of angle is unlikely to be realized at the smaller games in the mirage and bellagio, but if I tried this at the lucky lady, I would no doubt be knocked off by all the regular players who know damn well that I understand the proper betting procedures.... My guess is that I would likely piss someone off if I did this at my regular haunt, but in a larger cardroom, where many players will be unknown to you, you can probably get away with it once or twice. I don't think it's QUITE worthy of the "death by torture" penalty, but perhaps a five-yard penalty would be in order. It's not TERRIBLY unethical, just a little....


Dave in Cali

Yes, of course this is unethical. I see people do this occasionally (experienced players who should know better); you're not the first to think it up.


It's unethical because it's a form of cheating - you're taking unfair advantage of a rule to try to get the effect of a raise without paying for it. Your action is deliberately ambiguous, thus detracting from the efficiency of the game.


By the way, as Baggins pointed out, if you have three or more opponents, your raise generally is profitable. (If you have two opponents it's borderline.)

why is it borderline with two opponents. and are you talking, say all flush draws even with say an overcard to the board.

An angle I have seen (I don't use them, but I'll enjoy talking about a good angle) is used in a card room w/ the "all or nothing" rule in regards to raising. You must put all the chips out for the raise to be legal or else it's just a call (unless you say 'raise' which you don't for the angle). You simply fire out all but one chip, then notice your error go back to your stack and flip in the last chip. The dealer will correct your mistake and you pull your raise back, with the effect in place.

why is it borderline with two opponents. and are you talking, say all flush draws even with say an overcard to the board.


My statement was a gross generalization; I should have qualified it or explained it further. What I meant was that the odds of hitting your hand are approximately 2-1, so if you put extra money in the pot which is matched by exactly two other players, you're neither gaining nor losing. Of course you're right, if you have an overcard you might win the hand without making your straight (or flush, as the case may be). On the other hand, you might make your straight (flush) and get beaten by a full house.


On reflection, "profitable" was a poor choice of word. The concept I was getting at really involves raising for value as opposed to raising for some other purpose, such as deception or to get a free card. My point was that against three or more players, a flush or straight draw can generally be bet or raised for value on the flop.

I did that same thing one time, drumming the fingers trying to look confused about what to do. Unfortunately, it was on the river with quad 2's. I didn't even get to checkraise with them either... :-)

unethical? maybe, but whether it is or not, how many times do you really think you can get away with doing somehting like that?