AQs 20-40

[mike l.]

here's a big pot i played the other night. i had AdQd in the cutoff. a bad player limped utg, then an 8-16 kid who doesnt play very well and is taking a shot raises, a mediocre player calls, i flat call, decent player on the button calls. bb calls, utg calls (he's almost all in). 6 players i think.

the flop is Qs9s3h. utg bets, raiser calls, next guy folds, i raise, button calls two cold, bb folds, utg 3 bets all in, raiser thinks and sighs and calls, i cap it, button calls two cold again, and preflop raiser calls. 4 of us, 1 player all in.

the turn is 8s. checked to me and i bet, button calls, raiser folds.

river is As putting 4 spades up there. i bet.

comments?

[andyfox]

3-bet pre-flop.

I've started to over-limp some now, listenin to those here who have told me that never limping is for mediocrities. But if I have a fine hand like A-Qs and I can buy the button for one small bet, I'm gonna do it every time.

Hope he didn't have K-Q with the Ks.

[mike l.]

"3-bet pre-flop."

my default play for sure! but i wanted to see how the flop came and how the hand developed before commiting more than one big bet. plus i have a nice mutliway hand. in this game there was simply no way i was going to win this pot unless i hit my hand pretty nicely so i figured it the right time to flat call and see the flop first.

[SossMan]

I like the bet on the end. It sure looks like he either has Q no kicker, smaller 2pr and is in call down mode, or has a baby flush. Either way, you're either beating him or he may fold a better hand. Good bet, because you can't fold to a bet after checking and it's (fairly) easy to fold to a raise.

[andyfox]

If you're going to have to show down the best hand, why not eliminate potential competitors. If you get the button out and one of the blinds, by my fuzzy math it increases your chances of winning from 1 in 6 to roughly 1 in 4.

[mike l.]

that's pretty fuzzy. the way i see, i had a premium drawing hand and wanted to just see the flop for the least amount of bets. by allowing myself to do this (rather than telling myself i must always raise raise raise) i free myself to make a clean and easy fold on the flop and smile and order a coffee and move onto the next excellent starting hand i come across. so for me, not 3 betting sometimes here is critical implied odds stuff.

[anatta]

I think just calling before the flop is okay, since suited and all. The 8-16 guy probably has a legit raising hand.

The flop is great since all-in guy can three-bet and allow you to cap. What would you have done if he just had four chips instead of eight? Maybe waiting to raise the turn would be better in that case, but I am not sure.

On the river, its a good bet since the pot is (hopefully) protected by the all-in guy.

[Mackie]

I don't see why everyone likes your river bet. A spade will probably not fold. If he doesn't have a spade he almost surely will not call. Why bet?

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
"3-bet pre-flop."

my default play for sure! but i wanted to see how the flop came and how the hand developed before commiting more than one big bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you not re-raise with AK for the same reasons? I mean the Flop could come J-rag-rag and there could bet a bet and a raise in front of you, in which case you'd be gald you didnt 3 bet pre-Flop.

-Brian

[mike l.]

"Maybe waiting to raise the turn would be better in that case, but I am not sure.'

something i dont do that a lot of players do around here is i dont go cuckoo on the flop w/ top pair, overpair, two pair, any pair, bluffs, anything really. maybe a set sometimes. it's officially a leak of mine. i wait until the turn (or river) too often.

this flop was me consciously forcing myself to get hyper on the flop w/ top pair top kicker and all sorts of players in calling all the way. i was playing really strong and really tight and right this session and i thought if ever there's a time to just pound the flop fearlessly this is pretty much it. for most of you it would felt normal, but for me, capping this flop feel weird. like i said: a definite leak.

[mike l.]

"Would you not re-raise with AK for the same reasons?"

w/ AKo i would 3 bet every time because i want as few people in as possible against my big unsuited overcards. with AKs i would usually 3 bet, but calling sometimes is a reasonable option.

[andyfox]

"I had a premium drawing hand and wanted to just see the flop for the least amount of bets"

So if there had been no raise in front of you, you would have overlimped and not raised?

"by allowing myself to do this (rather than telling myself i must always raise raise raise) i free myself to make a clean and easy fold on the flop"

I don't get it. You can always fold on the flop. You make the correct decision based on the size of the pot, what you flopped or didn't flop, the action, your opponents, etc., i.e. the same things you always base your decision on. You don't have to always raise raise raise. I like to do it when I have position, can improve my position by raising, and there's a good chance I have the best hand.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
that's pretty fuzzy. the way i see, i had a premium drawing hand and wanted to just see the flop for the least amount of bets. by allowing myself to do this (rather than telling myself i must always raise raise raise) i free myself to make a clean and easy fold on the flop and smile and order a coffee and move onto the next excellent starting hand i come across. so for me, not 3 betting sometimes here is critical implied odds stuff.


[/ QUOTE ]
agree. always re-raising with AKo is not a good play or habbit. with many people in, it's important to leave control to someone else so you can hopefully get in a raise on the flop or turn to thin the field when you hit. if you take control before the flop, and people happen to like to "check to the raiser", then good luck on thinning the field on a board of KJ9 2 tone..., turn Duece, but the river T! and 4 people still in, one bets, and one call... doh.!

[Tommy Angelo]

"I mean the Flop could come J-rag-rag and there could bet a bet and a raise in front of you, in which case you'd be gald you didnt 3 bet pre-Flop."

Or those same opponents might check to the three-bettor, because he threebet, and let him see the turn for free, where he picks up top pair or a backdoor flush draw.

Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

"by allowing myself to do this (rather than telling myself i must always raise raise raise) i free myself to make a clean and easy fold on the flop and smile and order a coffee and move onto the next excellent starting hand i come across."

Mike, you are just this close to perfection in this situation in my opinion. Go ahead and threebet. You know it's right. But be not afraid of afterflop overentanglement. Threebet it before the flop -- make dead money, stake your position, get the checkers to check -- and still be ready to release and smile and wait some more.


Tommy

[nykenny]

before the flop...

maybe mike should have just taken a look at his opponent on his left (button) and if he was folding anyway, then go ahead and call...

[Gabe]

Three betting before the flop and folding to a single flop bet is a strong play. Bad players don't make it. A great player knows exactly when and where the fine line is.

[Brian]

Hi Tommy,

I think you missed my sarcasm... I would 3 bet here every time, and found mike's reasons for not doing so faulty.
-Brian