OUCH!

[ripdog]

Name of the deceased withheld until family can be notified.

Hand #608937-6374 at Manalapan (No Limit Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 25/Nov/03 03:50:00

xxxxx is at seat 0 with $951.
ooooo is at seat 1 with $1037.
qqqqq is at seat 2 with $985.
zzzzz is at seat 3 with $1407 (sitting out).
sssss is at seat 4 with $977.
ttttt is at seat 5 with $2935.50.
????? is at seat 6 with $1834.
>>>>> is at seat 7 with $2438.
nnnnn is at seat 8 with $1054 (sitting out).
Toesanders is at seat 9 with $2462.
The button is at seat 5.

????? posts the small blind of $5.
>>>>> posts the big blind of $10.

xxxxx: -- --
ooooo: -- --
qqqqq: -- --
zzzzz: -- --
sssss: -- --
ttttt: -- --
>>>>>: -- --
Toesanders: -- --

Pre-flop:

Toesanders calls. xxxxx folds. ooooo folds.
qqqqq folds. zzzzz folds. sssss folds.
ttttt calls. >>>>> checks.

Flop (board: 6h 3h Jh):

ttttt checks. >>>>> checks. Toesanders bets
$30. ttttt calls. >>>>> raises to $150.
Toesanders calls. ttttt folds.

Turn (board: 6h 3h Jh 6d):

>>>>> bets $360. Toesanders calls.

River (board: 6h 3h Jh 6d 2h):

>>>>> bets $1080. Toesanders goes all-in for $1942.
>>>>> goes all-in for $1918. Toesanders is
returned $24 (uncalled).



Showdown:

Toesanders shows 6c 6s.
Toesanders has 6c 6s 6h Jh 6d: four sixes.
>>>>> shows 7s Ah.
>>>>> has Ah 6h 3h Jh 2h: flush, ace high.


Hand #608937-6374 Summary:

$3 is raked from a pot of $4916.
Toesanders wins $4913 with four sixes.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[nicky g]

"$3 is raked from a pot of $4916."

That rake'll kill'em all in the end.


I don't think Mr >>>>> played this very well.

[CoinLaundry-CptC0ckwell]

[ripdog]

I watched this table for an hour or so. This hand really caught my eye, but there were many pots in excess of $1000 dragged in during that time. I remember thinking that the most expensive hand this guy may have ever played was the one he played for free in the big blind. With a paired board and deep money, there's no way I'm betting that much on the river or calling an all-in. He must have been blinded by the flush. His river bet was immediate, as were his previous bets. Toesanders was without a doubt the tightest player at the table--this was the first hand that I saw him go past the flop with. I kind of felt bad for the loser, but it's tough to feel for someone who played so horribly for this one hand. Poof! $2438 gone in the blink of an eye. Maybe his cat jumped up and hit the call button. Then maybe he shoved it head first down the garbage disposal.

[illmatic]

He played terrible and deserved to lose that pot!

When the opponent calls his big raise on the flop, doesn't he have to put him on a set?... OK so you don't give credit for the quad 6's, but you have to at least think about one of the possible boats when the board pairs on the turn. So you bet the pot ($200 or so) and fold to a reraise. You don't bet $1000 and then call another thousand!... What does he think the other guy has but a boat???

I need to get my money up and play $5/$10 NL at UB.

later,
illmatic

[Ulysses]

FWIW, the $360 and $1080 bets on the turn and river were about pot-sized bets. They put $150 each in on the flop and $360 each in on the turn.

[ripdog]

I don't mind his play until the turn. When the board pairs, I don't like my nut flush draw nearly as much. Toesanders has called pre-flop, has bet from the button and called a pretty good re-raise on the flop, and called a pot sized bet on the turn. If I'm in his shoes and the flush hits, I'm not ecstatic about it. I think I bet a smaller amount and fold to a huge re-raise. How would you have played it? FWIW, I don't care if the guy deserved it or not, I wouldn't wish a loss like that on anyone, but I'd certainly scoop it in with a big grin.

[illmatic]

Ah, I looked at it wrong -- thought that he flopped the flush. That changes things a bit. It's a big loss, far bigger than I've seen or won. You're a friendly type and feel sort of bad for the guy, I'm a cynical bastard. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I think he's playing NL and he pushed his money into the center of the table himself... if you can't lose it, don't play with it.

I don't know that I bet the turn. The guy called your pot sized flop bet and you're out of position, and you are drawing to something that might be dead now that the board paired. I can think of better times to put my money in. But say you bet in order to lock in your draw price, then you want to make it a semi-fair draw price for you, say 1/2 the pot. If you get raised, you have think that you're drawing dead here.

On the river, when the flush hits if you were drawing at it, then you must believe you were drawing live (or why did you draw at it) and you have to bet like it.

Basically, I'm not too willing to put too much money in the pot in an instance where the board pairs on the turn after my big flop bet got called -- and I have no hand. Especially if the guy calling me is the tightest guy at the table, and this is the only hand that he's liked enough to go past the flop...

In general, I am also more likely to let go of a drawing hand if I'm out of position.

later
illmatic

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind his play until the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. $30 in the pot pre-flop. Checked to last guy who bets pot. $60. Next guy calls. $90. Now, nut flush draw pot-raises to $150 straight. $240. You said the button was tight. Was he weak-tight? If so, this might be a good move. But I probably wouldn't do it out of position like this. If he calls, I'm in a tough spot and it'll be tough to make much money if I make my hand.

[ QUOTE ]
When the board pairs, I don't like my nut flush draw nearly as much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the tight player calling my flop pot raise on the 3-flush board. I really don't like the board pairing. With money this deep against a tight player who called the big raise on the flop, I'm likely to check here and hope to see another card for free or cheap. I don't like the pot bet here and his flat call here makes me absolutely sick.

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm in his shoes and the flush hits, I'm not ecstatic about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As soon as he calls the turn, I'm checking the river. If I don't hit my hand, I give up. If I hit my hand and he goes all-in, I fold. If I hit my hand and he pots it, I'm probably folding. If I hit my hand and he underbets the pot, then I have a decision.

[ QUOTE ]
I think I bet a smaller amount and fold to a huge re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's that amount - $500? What's going to call that? Maybe the flopped King or Queen-high flush? Other than that, seems like I'm either going to get raised by a better hand or a bluff. I think it's better to check and hope that he underbets - either as a bluff or trying to milk me. If he bluff bets big on the end with a paired 4-flush board after I've shown that much strength, well, good for him. He wins.

[sweetzer]

Once the reraise is called on the flop, you would have to put the caller on either two pair, a set, or a made non-nut flush. Two pair is highly unlikely with that flop. Once the board pairs on the turn, if the Ace flush draw would check instead of bet, he would likely have to call a bet from either of the two above hands. I couldn't call a bet on a flush draw with the board paired. Yet both possible hands would also call his bet on the turn. Thus on the turn against a tight player with a large stack, I would have to check the turn and fold to a pot sized bet. If the turn were also checked, I would bet the river having made the nut flush, but I couldn't call the reraise, because a tight player with a non-nut flush would not reraise.

[ripdog]

Thanks for the response. I was torn between checking and betting around $500 on the river. The problem that I saw with either of those plays is that it's practically inviting either a huge raise or a huge bet. If he bets $500, he can still lay it down to the big raise and leave ~$1500 in his stack. With the action going the way it did, I think that checking the river and hoping that he checks behind or underbets is the best move.

[Jon Matthews]

What does he think the other guy has but a boat???


You can all talk like this because you know what happened but it would also be natural to think the opponent had the Khxh or even the bare Kh...

If this was a live hand, the outcome would likely have been different however with more time to think about it...


Jon

[scrub]

Good god that's a lot of money. But the guy really, really deserved it. I watch that game in an extra window occasionally during my UB sessions. Toesanders is a regular in the game, and almost always appears to be one of the two strongest players at the table. I would not characterize him as "weak tight." He is certainly not someone to tangle with while holding a trap-type draw when the money gets big...

That game draws a strange crowd. Sometimes I think it looks softer than the pre 5-10 UB 2-4 did. Anybody played in it or watched it enough to characterize it? Hearing some opinions might make my railbirding more fun....:)

scrub

[illmatic]

[ QUOTE ]
What does he think the other guy has but a boat???

You can all talk like this because you know what happened but it would also be natural to think the opponent had the Khxh or even the bare Kh...

If this was a live hand, the outcome would likely have been different however with more time to think about it...


[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of posters have broken it down below. I think the loser in this hand played pretty badly. A key part is knowing that the other player "is the tightest player at the table, and this is the first time he's gone past the flop"... knowing that, he's got to have a boat or better. If it's a loose aggressive guy, it could easily be the K high flush or the bare K, I agree with you there.

later,
illmatic