How bad is this online fold?

[glen]

Stars 30-60, 6 handed. . .

I have JJ in the bb. UTG raise, sb coldcalls, I call.

flop T 7 5 two hearts. sb checks, I bet, UTG raises, sb coldcalls, I 3 bet. utg and sb call.

Turn 6 no heart. sb checks, I bet, utg raises, sb cold calls, I fold. . .

I ask because I thought it was a marginal situation, yet I felt folding was better than paying two more big bets with a potentially dicey river to deal with in light of the sb's presence, but Paluka said he wouldn't even consider it.

Also, I didn't really have a read on utg's play, as I had only played against him/her for about 20 minutes and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.

[rigoletto]

Seems like a good fold to me. The call 3-bet on flop and then raise turn usually means buisness!

[Vehn]

Awful. I would never fold here.

[astroglide]

all you've represented is a flush draw or a ten. terrible fold. i would have 3bet preflop.

[Ulysses]

Pretty bad.

[rigoletto]

I agree with the 3-bet preflop. But wondering why Everybody seems to disagree with me? What do you put UTG on?

[cero_z]

Hi glen,
This is a very bad fold. UTG's in a situation where he wants to move the SB out whether he's ahead or not. He may have you beaten, but he could easily have a good ten. The SB's probably on a heart draw, so your play is to call or re-raise, since there's a very good chance you're leading at this time. If you knew UTG to be tight, or solid, etc., you should just call, but in that gravy train of a 30-60 game, I would re-raise about 2/3 of the time.

[astroglide]

he has an overpair, so who cares what utg has?

he folded as a reaction to utg's actions, not as a result of putting him on a hand (at least so far as was described). if he explained that he just knew the guy had a set, well, i'd still call it a bad fold. but i digress.

what is more important is what utg puts HIM on. he called preflop, and bet/3bet the flop. most 30/60 players could do this with a variety of hands, including any pair or a flush draw.

if he had 3bet preflop he would be most likely to be getting their money in the pot while he held the best hand, and the rest of it would have been much more readable.

[mike l.]

youre probably beat an irritating amount of the time but given the size of the pot your hand is surely best enough to keep playing. since you didnt reraise preflop as you should have he has no reason to believe his T or whatever is not best. you should reraise the turn. and dont play 20-40 or 30-60 6 handed online unless you want to be consistently put to the test and just happily pay off loose players who get there and so on and so forth.

[mike l.]

"The call 3-bet on flop and then raise turn usually means buisness!"

no that sounds like the nut flush draw trying to take 2 players to the turn and build a pot. a lot of people would slowplay a set here, not a lot of posters on here, but a lot of average mid limit players and online players.

[daryn]

i put UTG on a bigger pair than jacks..


FOLD! /images/graemlins/grin.gif


hmm, are the odds there to call actually if you KNEW utg had say KK? didn't think about that

[elysium]

hi glen
you like to call here.

[glen]

Ely! Why did you go? Spend some time overseas or something?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, are the odds there to call actually if you KNEW utg had say KK? didn't think about that

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a joke, daryn?

[ZeeJustin]

Easy call IMO.

[stripsqueez]

i think its a bad fold

if UTG held a bigger overpair he may well of capped the flop - certainly QQ or KK probably should cap the flop - as has been said, in a 3 way pot, he is getting reasonable value for a drawing hand, and you need to be very certain you dont have the best hand

how are you going to sleep at night when the SB takes it down with Q10s and UTG shows AK of hearts ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[balt999]

have to agree with everyone else..you can't fold in this sitatution, but you have to play the rest of the way cautiously.

[daryn]

no joke

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
no joke

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, no. I still find it hard to believe that not only don't you know, but you don't even have a feel for when the pot is big enough to chase a 2-outer (or potential 1-outer, depending on what color the Jacks were).

[daryn]

i don't even know how much the pot was, i guess i just type out messages fast. how else do you think i got so many post so fast? i mean geez, i think i have more than cyndie now.

i'm pretty confident in my poker skills though

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't even know how much the pot was, i guess i just type out messages fast.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you read the post, right? Without having to count the bets, it should be pretty obvious to any solid mid-limit player whether that's a pot in the "chasing a 1 or 2-outer might be a good idea"-sized range. And really, how do you read to the end of that post without knowing how many bets are in the pot (+/- a couple of bets) anyway? No big deal. I was just surprised that at the end of the post you didn't (without counting or paying much attention) have an idea that the pot was about x number of bets.

[ QUOTE ]
i'm pretty confident in my poker skills though

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, uh, that's good, I guess. But it wouldn't hurt to learn some basics about pot odds.

[rivaridge]

"yet I felt folding was better than paying two more big bets"

You only needed to pay one more big bet to see your river card.

[woodman]

it seems to me you will need to come up with about 4-5 hands that your ahead of that UTG will jam with for this to be a positive EV (i.e. A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif etc.) since there are about 24 hands your chasing. This also assumes you have the J /images/graemlins/heart.gif and your ahead of the SB who is most likely on a flush draw.

[glen]

Sorry about the delayed response, but I was all busy with school, and then I started playing poker again. I don't know how online players find/budget as much time as they do to this forum sometimes, but anyways. . .

UTG showed, as someone guessed, QTo, and took it down. As most people noted, I think I botched this one preflop, but, then again, my 6 handed statement was a retrospective approximation, and it may have been 7 or 8, since online action is fast, number of players change every three minutes, etc. But, for the sake of the discussion, let's say it was six, and then it should have 3 bet preflop. I don't make a habit of folding overpairs online, in fact, I almost make a rule of never doing it short-handed. A lot of my decision had to do with a bad run and paying off on a few hands I shouldn't, but I generally agree with most posters about bad the fold was, especially against an unknown.

[glen]

"you should reraise the turn. and dont play 20-40 or 30-60 6 handed online unless you want to be consistently put to the test and just happily pay off loose players who get there and so on and so forth."

This is generally very good advice, but I had no real indication that my opponent was loose, but I still think one should assume this as a rule instead of looking for a reason to fold. . .

[Zele]

This is generally very good advice, but I had no real indication that my opponent was loose, but I still think one should assume this as a rule instead of looking for a reason to fold. . .

In today's environment, especially online, absolutely. I think the S&M books tend to suggest a "typical" player who is tighter and much less aggressive than today's usual crop.

[glen]

In today's environment, especially online, absolutely. I think the S&M books tend to suggest a "typical" player who is tighter and much less aggressive than today's usual crop.

Yeah, this has been discussed and agreed upon universally. The hard part is finding out how to play the best aginst unknown players without paying off too much. Sometimes, as mike l. noted, you just have to. Ulysses just posted about his standard play with AK just to bet, call a check-raise when it happens, and to call the river. I have this problem too. It's probably not the worst thing against a lot of players, but it's not good poker either. I think it's funny that hpfap says somewhere that if you understand the concepts you should be able to make a bet an hour in 6 months or something like that, which I find very unlikely. . .

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the S&M books tend to suggest a "typical" player who is tighter and much less aggressive than today's usual crop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome point.