A trick KK hand what is best way to play?

[Noodles]

Playing now at Sun poker.1/2$. These games are v.loose and a little aggressive.
This is one of my first few hands so dont have any reads.

I am in MP with K /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG calls, fold , I 2 bet , CO folds , button calls ,blinds call ,UTG calls
10 sbs to flop

FLOP
T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif
SB checks , BB bets ,UTG folds ,I 2 bet ,button calls ,SB calls ,BB calls.
Ok i rose here as i doubt if he would come firing with a straight,i supposed he could have an ace but i wanted to raise to hopefully knock out the button and SB.
But with a flop like this and a big pot is it a waste of time raising to knock people behind out?
Could i have just called on a dangerous board like this?

TURN
8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB and BB check.I bet,button raises,SB folds,BB calls, ok i definetly dont think i have the best hand here,I think he probably has a straight with a 9,Q or even slowplayed a KQ,i call as the pot is huge and i could hit a Q.My pot odds are 14/1.

RIVER QS. Yeah! /images/graemlins/grin.gif
BB checks,I bet,They both call.
I take the pot.

Ok i got lucky on the river.
I am wondering was i right to raise the flop?
what do you guys think the button had? would someone have slowplayed a set on the flop,maybe 3 Ts,possibly 3 Js with that scary board?i doubt it,thats why i think he made a straight on the turn,although that means he called my PF raise with crap.

[LetsRock]

I always (this is probably my only "always" move) follow a PFR with a strong bet/raise on any flop unless the flop is monster (boat, quads, made nut-flush, maybe a set of Aces). "My hand is still the best!"

Sure there's plenty to be worried about, but the trouble will usually appear very quickly and you want to know as soon as possible if you're in trouble.

The button was clever enough to wait til the turn to speak out and that would definately get my attention. With that kind of board, it's hard to guess which cards are playing against you, so you just have to wing it, pray for the miracle and call it down against 1 opponent. Action from multiple oponents makes it hard to finish this hand, but that's where you just have to make your best guess and live with your decision.

BTW, 14:1 is not enough odds for the gutshot alone - you need closer to 20:1 to make that play soley on hitting a queen. (More if you think Qs are already out against you.

[astroglide]

bad turn bet. you should have taken the free card, and folded on the river if you didn't improve to a set or a straight and it was bet and called in front of you.

[Noodles]

Was the turn bet really bad? After the 2 checks i wanted to bet and hope fully knock some out,probably not possible with the pot this big.

[Noodles]

Lets say i think one queen is out so 3 left. 46 cards means odds of 14.333/1. isnt tHAT RIGHT/

[LetsRock]

Well, I'll confess that I'm not math wizard.

The odds I quoted were from my notes I made from one of the books (which I don'thave in front of me). My memory wants to say he gave gutshot odds on the river at 19.x/1. (4.x/1 before the turn)*

<font color="blue"> * I would love it if someone would show me how to calc this! I can't seem to make any formula workout! Shouldn't it be 3/47 + 3/46 on two chances to draw 1 of 3 cards?
</font>

Anyway, mathematically your numbers seem sound 3 of 46 ~ 1 of 15 ie 14:1 so maybe my memory (or my notes) is wrong. I better check! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[astroglide]

yes, the turn bet was really bad. you bet and got called in 3 places on an ace-high flop. did you honestly think you had the best hand, or that you would knock out a better one? giving a free card to a flush draw is a risk you'll have to take, as you're almost veritably on a draw yourself.

[LetsRock]

DOH! I checked my refrences last night and figured out where I went wrong on the "20:1" odds reference for a gutshot on the river.

It's about 10.5:1 for 4 outs on the river.

(I've been playing mostly 1/2 (just moved up to 2/4). My criteria for chasing a gutshot on the river (based on odds) was "over $20 in the pot" - I kind of did a translation in my mind and forgot that I had done it thus the 20:1 recolection)

Sorry to all for bad info and any confusion.

[AviD]

4 cards on board to the turn
1 suspected Q out
2 cards in your hand

7 total cards known/suspected
52-7 = 45

3/45 chances to win = ~6.67% = 15:1

That's how I calculate it, could be off?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
3/45 chances to win = ~6.67% = 15:1

[/ QUOTE ]

Its actually 14:1 (42 bad cards:3 good cards)

[Nottom]

I don't like a the turn bet either (check with outs) but I wouldn't fold to a river bet if you didn't improve. The check invites a hand like KJ to bet the river so unless its a bet and a raise I would call unimproved.

[AviD]

Ahhh thanks for the clarification. I could remember something along the lines of "number of ways to make your hand" versus "number of ways to lose your hand".

That makes sense! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks again! /images/graemlins/wink.gif