Hold'em Preflop Strategy According to Abdul

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
However, if you make a mistake by usually laying down AQ on flop that misses even though you believed you had the best hand preflop then perhaps you would be better off playing incorrectly preflop by not raising. Another exception could be made if your opponents will "check to the raiser" if and only if the flop contains an ace, king, or queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two concepts here and I don't understand either of them. The first is calling with overcards. TTH almost always advises to call with overcards. Yet Jones advises against it. Can anyone give me a good rule of thumb about this very common situation? I know that the odds of hitting one of your overcards is 7-1 but I usally fold unless the pot is giving me at least 10-1 because my overcard pair might give someone else two pair.

The second concept is a new one for me. I've never bothered to notice whether my games do this or not. It's something that I will have to begin looking for. But is this right, if the table only checks to the raiser if flop contains A,K or a Q then you should not raise with AQ in LP.

[Bozeman]

I think both experts are right, the difference in correct play is a function of different game types.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
But is this right, if the table only checks to the raiser if flop contains A,K or a Q then you should not raise with AQ in LP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sence. If they are going to bet into you everytime you miss with your big cards and not bet when you hit to give you a chance to raise, thats not good. Most tables aren't like this and will often check to you on any flop.

[CORed]

I don't really like to call with overcards. Overcards play best as a semi-bluff. I like to bet them if i'm acting first or I've been checked to, in a three-way or heads-up pot, preferably with a flop that has little straight or flush potential. I will also sometimes raise with them in late position, hoping to buy the button and a free card. The problem with calling with overcards in a mutli-way pot is that, even though you seem to be getting the proper odds to call, your pair may not be good if you hit it. If you don't play overcards properly, they can be a major leak in your game.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
The first is calling with over cards. TTH almost always advises to call with overcards. Yet Jones advises against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that Jones is describing loose passive games /images/graemlins/smile.gif while TTH is addressing tighter more aggressive games.

8 players in an unraised pot, fold over cards. 3 players in a raised pot, play over cards aggressively.

[ QUOTE ]
if the table only checks to the raiser if flop contains A,K or a Q

[/ QUOTE ]

A log of the profit from raising preflop comes from having the initiative on the flop. If you are not getting this, some of the advantage in a pre flop raise is lost so you should consider folding or calling with hands you might otherwise raise with.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi jt1:

I think you have a number of things here confused.

First, when we looked at TTH we found the advice it gives not to be very good. So whatever it tells you I would discount it strongly.

Second, to call with overcards on the flop you need to have an idea of what the chances of catching one of the overcards is and having it be good and then compare it with the size of the pot. In some situations calling can be correct, but in others it can easily be wrong.

You also need to take into account your position. If several players are still to act behind you, it may cost you several bets to call, not just one.

Also, keep in mind that you are more likely in some spots to win if you draw to and hit a hand like KQ as opposed to AK. That's because when you catch an ace, you are more likely to make someone two pair. See HPFAP for more discussion.

As for calling or raising with a hand like AQ in late position in multiway pots, that is discussed in our books and has been addressed many times on these forums. What you need to understand is that when the pot is multiway but not raised, you will (in general) show a profit by raising with AQ. However, the question is can you show a greater profit by not raising with it?

Not raising will give you some strategic advantages, and you save a bet the times the flop comes bad for your hand. So our advice is to consider how well your opponents (in the pot) play. If they are awful and come with lots of weak hands, you lose too much by not raising before the flop. On the other hand, if several of them play reasonably well and require legitimate hands to be in there, what you give up before the flop can now probably be made up for plus a little by only calling.

Best wishes,

Mason

[Ace-Korea]

[ QUOTE ]


So our advice is to consider how well your opponents (in the pot) play. If they are awful and come with lots of weak hands, you lose too much by not raising before the flop.



[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with weak loose players is that, when you raise with AQ, they will pretty much still call. And once they see the flop and like what they see, they will have the proper pot/implied odds to go "all the way."

Also, raising with big hands kind of gives away what you hold, and according to the fundamental theorem of poker, you lose when your opponents know your cards. So I think in loose games, it's not too terrible to just call pre-flop and fold if the flop misses you. After all, it is much easier to fold to just one bet than two.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Strg8:

I found your post to be a little strange.

First, David and I were the ones to suggest in HPFAP that you are frequently better off calling with a hand like AQ when you get in from late position in a multiway pot. Your post seems to imply the opposite.

Second, you seem to be saying that even though weak loose players will call your preflop raise, better players who have limped in will fold. I know of no players who will do this. So am I reading your post correctly?

Finally, you should play more straight forward in multiway pots with big hands than you would if the pot was not multiway. The problem with this example is that while AQ is a pretty good hand (in this spot) it's certainly not a big hand.

best wishes,
Mason

[Michael J. Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising will give you some strategic advantages, and you save a bet the times the flop comes bad for your hand. So our advice is to consider how well your opponents (in the pot) play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your playing style is also a factor. Someone who tends to call too much after the flop may benefit more from raising before the flop, and visa versa. Another reason some may wish to refrain from marginal preflop raises would be to reduce variance.

-MJS

[Smaegol]

I agree with CoRed. 2 Overcards should generally be played in semi-bluff situations only. Here is a good example:

You have AQd

Flop is 10c-Jd-6s.

If the pot is large enough, you can make a call here in a later position in my opinion because an A,Q,or K can give you the best hand, and another Diamond in the Turn also will give you a Flush draw. Don't go past the turn if you dont improve unless the pot odds warrant such a call.

In my opinion, you will save yourself bets in the long run not even tinkering with playing 2 overcards. If there is any significant action after the flop, get out and save yourself some money.

[Gabe]

Man, I don't know if you guys are agreeing or disagreeing, or if you're talking about the same thing or different things. What's wrong with me? I'm going to read this again when I come home.

[Ace-Korea]

[ QUOTE ]


First, David and I were the ones to suggest in HPFAP that you are frequently better off calling with a hand like AQ when you get in from late position in a multiway pot. Your post seems to imply the opposite.



[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, Mason. First of all, thanks for your post. Well, I guess my English is still not perfect after living in the U.S. for 8 years, because I got the feeling that you were suggesting raising, not calling with AQ in some circumstances. You wrote, "If they are awful and come with lots of weak hands, you lose too much by not raising before the flop." I was basically commenting on this sentence. I guess maybe the words "weak hands" threw me off. I was thinking of hands like 67s to be an example of a weak hand. No?



[ QUOTE ]


Second, you seem to be saying that even though weak loose players will call your preflop raise, better players who have limped in will fold. I know of no players who will do this. So am I reading your post correctly?



[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was just trying to point out the fact that when the pot gets big by your raise, relatively weak hands might have the proper odds to call on the flop. And I don't know if I'm too tight or I too rarely raise on pre-flop, but I do observe, from time to time, players folding to my raise pre-flop. Of course I'm not talking about players in the blinds here.

And please don't take me too seriously. I'm just a beginner for now. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Str8:

Okay. I see where you are coming from. As for whether to faise before the flop with AQ in a multiway pot it really depends on the quality of your opponents. Don't just think in terms of particular hands. If they play bad, you should raise. If they play better, calling begins to make sense.

Best wishes,
mason