KK got cracked... my fault?

[LetsRock]

3/6 B&M game. Table is about 50/50 Fish/Passive. First time at this place so most of my reads are very tentative.

(This is the first time I've been in a B&M in about 8 months, and I was concentrating heavily on my player read skills development, which is something I've never spent a lot of effort on. This may have contributed to my brain fart!)


I'm SB and get KK. Call to me, I raise PF, get 4 callers:
BB (one who I so far have pegged as reasonably solid - hasn't done anything to proove otherwise),
UTG ("have never seen 2 cards I didn't like"),
LMP (new to table),
BTN (unsure, but seems pretty loose, and keeps digging in his pockets for more money)

Flop is 9,7,5 (suits not a factor)

I bet, BB raises, UTG actually folds!, LMP calls, BTN folds I call. 3 to turn.

For some reason, I put BB on having flopped a straight. This is probably due to the fact that someone flopped a straight flush about 2 hands before. I figured him for at least 2 pr.

Turn brings Ace.

[8,6,4] A

Great, now some cling-on with the weak ace hand is ahead of me! Wanting just to get to a cheap showdown at this point, I check - and it checks around! (I was not happy here.)

River brings a J

[9,7,5,A] J

I bet out BB folds (he just flopped a pair), LMP calls and shows me J9 off.

After the hand (at least I think I learned something) I was trying to figure out how I could have chased the J9 away. I'd like your comments of my conclusion:

The mistake I made was on the flop. I should have 3 bet to see where I really stood
-if he caps I know he's serious about representing a good hand and it will likely chase the other player. I can then let him drive and call him down (or fold).
-if he calls I'll know that he was just testing me. I can bet out on the turn (especially an Ace!) and will probably take the hand right there since my 3-bet will also tell the rest of the table that I was serious about my pfr.

Of course I can't be sure that LMP would have gone away, but I think it's pretty good chance that a pair of nines is not good to continue vs. a PFR after an Ace hits the board.

I realized after the hand, that I should have used the Ace instead of feared it on the river, but I just got a real poor read of the situation and shifted right into defense.

[lil']

I agree with you about three betting the flop. You'll never know if you would have won or not if you did it, but it was the right play.

[HajiShirazu]

You have to three bet that flop, and bet the turn also.
I don't think you would have chased the guy with J9 off of his pair though. Most people who call raises with J9 aren't going to fold when they flop any pair, nonetheless top pair. I dunno, he MIGHT have folded. But indeed, as you say, 3-betting gives you the best chance to win. Maybe he folds on the turn if you 3 bet and bet the turn. I doubt it.

[LetsRock]

I agree, you never know. But with the Ace popping on the turn, following a PFR and a 3-bet flop, he'd have been hard pressed to call a turn bet with what is no-longer top pair.

I would have at least found out something about him if he did call down.

The more I think about this hand, the more I'm disapointed in my play. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Jim Easton]

You definitely should have 3-bet the flop, but I doubt it cost you the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
I would have at least found out something about him if he did call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

He called a raise cold with J9o. That tells you plenty. As another poster said, someone who calls a raise cold with J9o isn't likely to fold a pair before the river.

[slavic]

He didn't call it cold, he was on the installment plan pre-flop

[Edge34]

Everybody's said it already, reraising the flop was the correct play. Although you can't know if you would've gotten the J9 out of there, it might have given you a better shot at winning had you then followed it with the turn bet. 3/6 is a gambler's limit in my experience...no number of outs would be too small for Mr. J9, the most you can do is make them pay to draw you out.

[slavic]

First I hardly ever blame myself when KK gets cracked. AA for that matter either. I take it as a natural sign that I'm in the right game.

Pre-flop great raise. Let's get them a line of credit on the payment plan.

Flop: when you are raised by a good player, that normally means I have a good draw or I have top pair. Possibly 2nd pair heads up or short handed. A weak player only calls. You have to reraise here and expect a cap if he's on a good draw or a call if he's on top pair. You just said top pair no good and yes you are going to pay to draw. He'll tell you later if an overpair is no good.

Guess what MP J9o is going to call all the way through this (and would you want him not to?).

Turn: Scare cards aren't just scary for you, Bet out here. Now if your raised you have problems. Would MP fold here? Probably not and he wouldn't be wrong to call so there isn't a lot that you can do.

River: I bet and call a raise followed by a "nice hand".
Normally followed by someone asking to see my cards.

[balt999]

Results aside, Looks like you understand what you did wrong...you have to put as much money into the pot when you have the best of it..and especially those who decide to call with you a far more inferior hand like the J9 dude had..In this case you just got really unlucky on the river..