Gotta love it! Signs a game is good...

A new player enters the game. I don't know him, never seen him before, but I think he's inexperienced, as he can't handle chips to save his life. I'm in the SB with AA and raise three limpers, all call (new player is UTG, BB folds).


The flop is Js 8s 4c. I bet and everyone calls.


The turn is the 2h. I bet and the new player raises. The rest fold and I call.


The river is an offsuit 8. I check, he bets, I call. He shows me Kh8d and takes it.


Gotta love it!


Next hand I'm UTG with black KK and raise, four players cold call, as do both blinds. The pot is big.


The flop sucks major ass: Ah 9h Qs. All check.


The turn sucks even worse: Th. The SB bets and two call, I fold.


The river is a blank. All check.


All three players remaining in the pot have an ace. The kickers are 8, 4, and 2, none suited, it's a 3-way split as the nine on the board plays.


Gotta love it!


And in a historical hand, rehashed from days gone by at the Mirage...


I'm not getting cards, and fold every hand for four orbits. I finally get AsKh UTG and come out raising. SEVEN players call.


The flop is king high, all spades. I bet and get a caller.


The turn is a Q. I bet and get called.


The river is the 8s. I bet and get called by Ah8h.


Gotta love it!


Dave in Cali

Ignoring preflop play limping with K8o from any position, let alone UTG....


Do you really think his turn raise is that bad? He is likely to get almost any jack to fold, and he isolates you in case you have AK, AQs etc. If he is behind to say, QQ, he might get KJ to fold and give himself extra outs. If he doesn't improve on the river, he can take the free showdown. I don't think his postflop play was bad at all.

"Do you really think his turn raise is that bad? "


Not really, it wasn't horrible or anything like that. I was actually kind of neutral on his post-flop play. But you still gotta love it when they play K8o UTG!


Dave in Cali

Absolutely. The other day while selecting which 8-16 to play, I chose the one where K6o and K8o were chopping the pot. First sign of a good game.


I've noticed that many players at the table who are trying to "play right" criticize those who play hands like K8o UTG and assume that they are horrible players.


What I've found is that many players who play a ton of hands are SUPERB postflop players. People tend not to notice this because they are so obsessed with what they are turning over. Thus they make huge mistakes postflop against this player because they assume (incorrectly) that the player is horrible in postflop play as well.


The maniac at the table is frequently the best postflop player in the game. Be sure to have a complete view of a players game, thats all.

"What I've found is that many players who play a ton of hands are SUPERB postflop players. "


This may often be true. even if they are not always superb after the flop, many players are not 2+2ers but have lots of experience, which counts for something. This is especially true in small cardrooms like the one I frequent. Almost ALL the players are regulars, new faces are rare. Even when the regulars are very loose, they are still much better, especially post-flop, than the stereotypical clueless Vegas tourist. Pre-flop play is the most difficult area of play, and is therefore where us 2+2ers probably make the most significant decisions, and the most money. Post flop play is often much easier, and experience DOES count, even in non-Super-Genius players who might play hands like K8o.


One other thing... In cardrooms like mine, where everyone's a regular, you MUST learn how people play in order to beat them. I doubt I made any "theoretical" profit when I first started playing in california, due to the aggressive nature of the games, and due to the abundance of regular players. After adjusting to the aggressive nature of players here, now it was time to apply psychology to my game. I like learning how people play, because I can custom taylor my play against them specifically. Some players I bluff more, some I NEVER bluff, some I value bet into, some I give plenty of respect, some I call their raises or reraise them liberally, others I know have the nuts, so I fold. The flip side of this is that you must mix up your play a bit more than you might otherwise do. When I go to vegas, I virtually never mix it up or "advertise" at all. Why bother, I don't know anyone there and probably won't see them again. Here, I see the same faces all the time, so I can't have them learning how I play....


Dave in Cali

Pre-flop play is the most difficult area of play


Why do you say that? I think preflop is the easiest part of the game. Take that K8o for instance. I would never play this hand under the gun in a full ring game and it's not even close. Very simple decision.


natedogg

Some hands are REAL easy to decide on, like K8o for instance. The tricky part is not the terrible or great hands, it's the marginal situations.


Take the great AQ debate that consumed the forums for weeks at a time. It's still not really settled, and probably won't be anytime soon. The reason is that it really is a borderline situation as to what to do when there's a raise and you have AQ. Against some, I reraise (especially offsuit), against others, I fold without hesitation. Knowing your players helps.


Another situation is what to do with AJ when a pretty tight player has limped ahead of you. Against certain players, especially weak-tight players who rarely raise preflop, I will muck it, but against a typical loose but predictable field, I will usually play.


Still another situation that's hard to deal with is those pairs like 99-JJ, that you have great difficulty folding (esp. JJ), but where raising may not be a particularly good play.


Another reason I think pre-flop play is difficult is that you must make a decision on every round, while you may only have to make any decision at all on perhaps 1 out of 6 flops, 1 out of 9 turns, and 1 out of 15 rivers.


A final reason I think pre-flop is difficult is that pre-flop is probably where the decisions you make most affect your overall earn. If you are too loose, you will clearly lose in the long run. [Being too tight is not likely to cost you much, and is not a problem suffered by very many players.]


None of this is meant to overshadow the decisions made on other rounds. Take the river for instance. If you fold too often on the river, you are clearly losing a BUNCH of money by giving up the entire pot when you have a winner. Here, your decisions are critical, and mistakes are very costly. Arguements could be made for every round of play, but I still think pre-flop is overall the most difficult round to play.You might be able to argue your way into changing my mind, my position is not THAT firm on the matter!


Dave in Cali

Pre-flop play is something can can be learned to a great deal of "correctness" in a fairly short time. The situations that come up tend to be of a relatively small number. A player will memorize (probably subconciously) maybe a few hundred circumstances for automatic play. Very few scenarios will fall outside this general "list" and those that do are often very close mathematically, and so don't matter all that much to long-term earn.


Post-flop play, like the difference between the opening moves and mid-game moves of a chess game, is far more complex. There are simply so many more variables by this point, not the least of which is the five additional cards. How many oppenents, who raised on which street and from what position, and the possible holdings of each opponent are just a few of the additional things to consider. There are extra streets of action that must be analyzed independantly and dependantly. This is where all the money in hold'em is made. There's no doubt about it. That's why there are so many players that can play VERY loose pre-flop and still win a lot of money playing the game.


I hope I've changed your mind,

-MD