Two 1/2 hands

[Sleepy Weasel]

Two consecutive hands of 1/2 at TGC:

Hand 1: Hero is in the big blind with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. EMP is only caller. Hero checks.

Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets, EMP calls.

[Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif] 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero bets, EMP raises, Hero calls.

[Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif] 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero checks, EMP bets, Hero raises, EMP calls.

Commentary: I'm not really clear what I was thinking on this hand (after this and the next one, I realized I was tired and called it a night). I figured I was ahead with top pair against one limper on the flop, so I bet out. I probably should have taken some time to think about the raise on the turn. Could be a straight, 2 pair, slowplaying something made on the flop, or just trying to bully me out. Thinking about it now, the check raise on the river looks really bad to me. I think probably betting and folding to a raise, or check-calling would be much better choices (?).

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Hand 2: Hero is in the SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP1, MP2, CO all limp. Button folds. Hero completes, BB checks. 5 to the flop for 5 SB

8/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls. 3 to the turn for 4 BB.

[8/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif] 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls. 3 to the river for 7 BB.

[8/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif] Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Commentary: At the flop I had a flush draw, and a gutshot draw, so I had the odds to call the flop and turn bets. My question was about the river play mostly, what do you think?

[Joe Tall]

Hand#1

Check-raising the river when you make a raggy 2-pair on a str8 board, after being raised on the river can't be good. I think check-calling the river is a must.

Hand#2

I think you could have bet out on the flop and raised the river.

Peace,
JT

[Sleepy Weasel]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand#1
Check-raising the river when you make a raggy 2-pair on a str8 board, after being raised on the river can't be good. I think check-calling the river is a must.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't know who it was that made that play. I need to find whatever in-game thought process made me do that and stamp it out.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand#2
I think you could have bet out on the flop and raised the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, that's interesting. I never know when to value bet with flush draws. WLLHE tells me to do it when I'm drawing to a nut flush (or straight), so I tend to never do it with less than a nut draw. I'm thinking that's way too conservative and I'm missing a lot of value. True? Would you bet here just for the simple math of it (ie 5 limpers)?

You'd still check-call the turn right?

When you say raise the river, do you mean bet out, or check-raise?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, that's interesting. I never know when to value bet with flush draws. WLLHE tells me to do it when I'm drawing to a nut flush (or straight), so I tend to never do it with less than a nut draw. I'm thinking that's way too conservative and I'm missing a lot of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush Draw + Gut Shot + Overcard = lots of outs = bet and raise the flop.

[CrackerZack]

Odd...aggressive on the first, passive on the 2nd.

First hand I like the play. if he has a 8, so be it.

2nd hand I'd always bet out on the flop and most likely the turn here. definitely on the river.

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand#1

Check-raising the river when you make a raggy 2-pair on a str8 board, after being raised on the river can't be good. I think check-calling the river is a must.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a single limper that raised you on the turn of a Q754 board? Only thing he'd be raising on that I'd be worried about is a set. I like the river C/R.

Not enough coffee this morning? Where's the aggression? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Flush Draw + Gut Shot + Overcard = lots of outs = bet and raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

[Sleepy Weasel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now, that's interesting. I never know when to value bet with flush draws. WLLHE tells me to do it when I'm drawing to a nut flush (or straight), so I tend to never do it with less than a nut draw. I'm thinking that's way too conservative and I'm missing a lot of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flush Draw + Gut Shot + Overcard = lots of outs = bet and raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, yeah, that's a good point, I forgot about the gutshot and overcard in that post (to my credit I did notice it while playing the hand...just didn't act on it).

But how about if I didn't have the extra outs? Is it a good idea to bet a Q high flush draw against 5 limpers here?

[Sleepy Weasel]

[ QUOTE ]
2nd hand I'd always bet out on the flop and most likely the turn here. definitely on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Q threw me, because I wasn't thinking about the overcard outs, just the flush and gutshot. That's why I got (ok, stayed) passive on the river.

I guess you're saying the extra odds from the gutshot and overcard allow me to bet the turn? I now see that those extra odds are important, now I'm trying to nail down how my play should be different from the case where I don't have them.

[Sleepy Weasel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand#1

Check-raising the river when you make a raggy 2-pair on a str8 board, after being raised on the river can't be good. I think check-calling the river is a must.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a single limper that raised you on the turn of a Q754 board? Only thing he'd be raising on that I'd be worried about is a set. I like the river C/R.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused about what you're putting him on here that he would raise with that I'd beat? If he has 86, or 63, whatever, I'll pay him off, I'm not worried about that. But the only thing I came up with that I would beat was a flopped 2 pair. That's a hand I could imagine him not raising on the flop. Wouldn't you expect a flop raise with a Q better kicker?

[CrackerZack]

If you aren't raised on the flop, a turn bet is read dependent. If you think there is even a small chance he will fold, a bet is good as you have a probable 15 outs and 18 if he's pushing middle pair. If he'll never lay it down there, checking might be better. If he's semi aggressive though, a good time is betting the flop, betting the turn and check-raising the river if the flush gets there. good fun.

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't you expect a flop raise with a Q better kicker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely player dependent. heads up with position, I'd raise you on the turn here about 60-70% of the time with KQ and QJ, flop with QT or Q9 (better be a real loose passive game to find myself in with either of these hands). I wouldn't have open-limped with AQ. I'd raise the flop with 87s, 76s and most sets.

So yes, with the turn raise I'm putting him on an KQ or QJ about as often as I'm putting him on a set. In retrospect, betting out on the river is probably better as he likely to check these hands through but call with them and won't raise you without a straight.

[Sleepy Weasel]

Thanks for the replies, I think I've got a some better ideas how to play these now.

For those who are interested in results:
Hand 1: He showed QQ for flopped set.

Hand 2: CO showed QJ for a better 2 pair.