pot odds to call the flop with a small pair

hey,


I was interested in what pot odds you require to call the flop with a small pair. I usually fold on the flop if I miss my set, but sometimes the pot becomes large enough that I think a flop call can be profitable. For example:

you have 44 on the button, 4 limp u call, sb calls

BB raises..everyone calls. Flop..K 7 2 rainbow. SB checks BB bets, one caller to you. Do u call at 16-1? Do u adjust the pot odds lower cause the sb might raise to say 12-1 and fold? Thanks in advance.

16 to 1 isn't enough. The closest I would make this call would be 20-1 if I was closing the action. You would need more like 25-1 if there was a chance of getting raised somewhere along the way. Also remember that if you have a backdoor straight draw this allows you to call with some smaller odds. So a flop like K72, would be worse for pocket 4's then a flop like K53.


Kris

A call here is okay if you think that you can win it with a bet on the turn if checked to. A good example of calling the flop with 44 is Mason's infamous 44 hand. But the problem with your flop is that it is so raggedy that you must conclude that (a) the bb will fire again on the turn or (b) if he doesn't the other flop caller probably will. Thus, you should fold. I forget the flop in Mason's hand but I think it was draw-infested and the bet came from early position into a field of players with the preflop raiser to Mason's left. Mason himself was in late position. In that situation, the early position bettor is probably either betting a draw or a monster hand (i.e. if he had just top pair, he would likely try and checkraise the preflop raiser). Thus, Mason's call on the flop makes sense. In your case, I think you have to fold.


BTW, If all had folded to the bb's bet on the flop, you have a situation that cuts both ways. On the one hand, you now know that if the bb checks, you have probably got him down to 6 outs (*although he could be checking JJ or QQ). On the other hand, almost no one in bb's shoes would check a hand like AQ against one opponent on the turn in a big pot. If he is any kind of player at all, he will bet again on the turn with no pair and you would have to fold because he could be betting with a apir or even a set.


Goat makes a very good point about the difference between flops of K72 and K53.

So we assume a flop of K-5-3 rainbow with your pair of 4's. We would like to see a 2,4, or 6 on the turn. So we have 10 good cards, 37 bad cards left in the deck at this point. 3.7:1 against picking up trips or an open ended straight draw on the turn. Specifically, it's 45:2 against trips and 39:8 against the draw getting there on the turn. Do you look at the 3.7:1 ratio and base your call or fold decision on that? Or do you somehow average the combination of the two, giving more weight to the 45:2 draw ? Say you pick up the draw on the turn(K-5-3-2). Now a 4 gives you trips and four straights the board. What do you do now? Is it worth it to let the backdoor draw trap you into calling when your trips don't flop? I'm always looking for a reason to fold and not hitting a set on the flop with my small pair is enough for me. Is my thinking flawed? If so, why?

Well usually folding small pocket pairs is the right thing to do when you dont flop a set, but in the rare cases where you are in a huge pot, it sometimes becomes correct to take on off. I am guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of about 12-1 should be good enough for a backdoor straight draw and a draw to a set.


Kris