KQo

[Ulysses]

15-30.

Good player open-raises from EMP. Folded to me on the button w/ KQo. I consider folding, but instead 3-bet. Good or bad? Terrible SB cold-calls. EMP calls.

Flop KQJr

Checked to me. I bet. SB calls. EMP checkraises. I 3-bet. SB calls. EMP almost 4-bets, then just calls. I think he either has AK or AT.

Turn blank KQJ3r

Checked to me. I consider checking, but bet. Standard?

[rharless]

Good player open-raises from EMP. Folded to me on the button w/ KQo. I consider folding, but instead 3-bet. Good or bad?

I think it's bad. To me, this is the textbook scenario for when you should fold.

The turn is tough (I think). It's hard to decide which side of the free card you are on (wanting one vs charging for one). I think you will be ahead of EMP more often than you are behind, though. SB's presence in the pot definitely makes me want to bet it.

[James282]

If this is a good player from EMP then I would be very cautious to enter this pot, unless you thought you could beat him with position. There aren't very many hands in the realm of playable hands that you have an advantage over in this situation, and there are way too many that crush you.

The flop is pretty nice for you, but his check-raise seems to suggest that he is not afraid of TPTK at the very least. I would probably speculate this to be a set of jacks or queens. I doubt he would check-raise AK here, but I don't know for sure. If he pegs you as a tight-aggressive, then he might not cap the flop so that he can check-raise you again on the turn. Or, he might give you credit for KK. At any rate I suppose you have to bet the turn here because you would be pissed to see an ace, nine, or ten on the turn if he is now ready to lay down a hand like AA or AK since he hasn't improved, and you have to charge the SB if he has 1 pair or any sort of draw. I imagine that he check-raised you again, and that he turned over 3 of a kind, jacks, but hey that's just my guess!
-James

[stripsqueez]

i opened your post dreading another ridiculous party short handed story - they cause me envy because i havent played there for a while

it occurs to me that the actual story looks a lot like a party 6 max story - ie your play would be standard if this was a 6 max game - in a full game it looks too aggressive - i would bet the turn - seems dumb to hit 2 pair and not bet the turn

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[mikelow]

bet. If he has AT, call him down.

[Diplomat]

Question 1: Bad.

If you won the hand, you dodged a bullet.

Bet the turn.

-Diplomat

[SinCityGuy]

I would have folded before the flop against a good player. If you think about the hands that he's likely to openraise with, how many of them are you favored against going into the flop with KQo?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ulysses:

You should fold before the flop.

best wishes,
Mason

[GuyOnTilt]

bet. If he has AT, call him down.

I disagree. If he has AT, fold the river unimproved.

GoT

[nykenny]

question 1:
if u do this all the time against a good player then it's a bad move;
if u only do it a small percentage of times, i think it's fine;
against weak tight EP raiser, fold 100%.

question 2:
the most u are representing at this time is probably a set of Kings. so if he has a set of Kings, he would check raise you again on turn 100%;
but if he has AK (highly doubt), he will just check call;
if he has QQ, JJ (highly probable) he will probably call down the whole way;
but QQQ might check raise you again because there is another player involved;
if he had ATs, you are surely getting check raised again;
and he most likely doesn't have QJ.

so given you are most likely beat, and SB will call a bet with any 10 on the turn anyway. plus SB improving to 2 pair is not a problem for you. i would recommend a CHECK .

Kenny

p.s. in the heat of battle, i'd probably bet.

[Ulysses]

stripsqueez hit on the reason for this blunder. I hadn't played in the cardroom in a few weeks but have been playing lots of Party 6max. That's why I 3-bet w/ what should have been a simple fold. It was really an instinctive 3-bet, but as soon a I did it, it just felt wrong. And a second later, it hit me - this isn't Party 6-max.

Anyway, I bet the turn. SB called. PFR checkraised. I called. SB folded.

River, of course, was a King. PFR check-called w/ his AT.

[daryn]

my guess is he's used to playing those 6 max 15-30's where you wouldn't hesitate for a second to 3 bet KQo

[stripsqueez]

River, of course, was a King. PFR check-called w/ his AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm glad you remembered to feel bad about this blunder - next time your A10 flops KQJ tip the dealer extra

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[mikelow]

But I think folding KQoff preflop is a bit too tight for this game.

[andyfox]

Did you still put him on A-K when he checked-raised the turn? I'd have to put him on A-T or a set.

I'm pretty sure I'd have folded.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you still put him on A-K when he checked-raised the turn? I'd have to put him on A-T or a set.

I'm pretty sure I'd have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on exactly AT on the turn.

There's a 5-bet cap here and SB has called 3 already. He would have re-raised me pre-flop w/ QQ or KK (though he sometimes might just call w/ AA). There's a small chance he has JJ or QK, but because of my 3-bet pre-flop, he'd be very wary of me having QQ or KK.

Anyway, I'm getting 13-1 (I think that's right) on my turn call with my 4-outer. I expect SB to call the raise. I'm sure I'll get one or two more bets if I hit. Seems like a call to me.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think that 3 betting with the KQo in a 6 max game isn't even a standard play. It's close, believe it or not, since people will over-defend their blinds and you will have to hit to win (plus you may be in deep kimchee). Added to the fact that you will have lots of tricky decisions on the turn in these games, and KQ just isn't that awesome. While you should be 3 betting it sometimes in these shorthanded games, doing so routinely may not be so great.

Of course, in a full game of any sort, this 3 bet is a recipe for disaster as I told you earlier, except for you, since you always seem to suck out /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[andyfox]

Wasn't it likely the sb had one or more of your out cards?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that 3 betting with the KQo in a 6 max game isn't even a standard play.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's not, I find a different 6-max game.

[ QUOTE ]
Added to the fact that you will have lots of tricky decisions on the turn in these games

[/ QUOTE ]
If I have a lot of tricky turn decisions, I find a different 6-max game.

[ QUOTE ]
and KQ just isn't that awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]
If KQ isn't awesome, I find a different 6-max game.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Wasn't it likely the sb had one or more of your out cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was impossible that SB had more than one of my out cards. Absolutely no way he has QQ, KK, or KQ. In retrospect (since he folded), he probably had either a King or a Queen (though he might have had AJ). But my read on him up to that point was simply "He has a 10." That could have been KT or QT, but also could have been T8, JT, etc.

So, it's probably, I dunno, 3.5 outs instead of 4. Still seems like a call to me. I was planning on channelling you or Tommy and finding the river fold if I didn't improve.

[andyfox]

You'd probably have to channel Tommy if you didn't improve. I'd have talked myself into talking myself into putting him on pocket aces or king-jack or somesuch nonsense at that point because, well, I could beat those hands.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it's not, I find a different 6-max game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

[ QUOTE ]
If I have a lot of tricky turn decisions, I find a different 6-max game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, but maniacs will make you have to be in slightly nauseating spots at times.

[ QUOTE ]
If KQ isn't awesome, I find a different 6-max game.



[/ QUOTE ]

I would rather have AT by a long shot. It's hard when everyone misses and you have K-hi to show down with. KQ is pretty good, but hardly "awesome," but there are obviously games available (at times) where KQ may be approaching awesome status, but you can't always get what you want.

[Tommy Angelo]

U,

I can read U from a month away. My first time to this thread, I was reading along in flat mode, hoping you hadn't posted the results yet so that I could take a shot at predicting the outcome, which would have gone like this:

Of course the commanding premise is that you won the pot. And if you had had the best hand all the way and simply bet it until raised on the turn and then called down, well, that not's much of a story.

So there was no doubt in my mind that you sucked out, which means opponent could only have had JJ or AT, then the river came K or Q. Or he could also have QQ, with a king on the river. I would have guessed it was one of those combos.

As to mucking preflop for two cold on the button with KQ, in San Bruno? No way. It's against city ordinance.


Tommy

[andyfox]

"there was no doubt in my mind that you sucked out"

No, he built the pot up to the point where we think he was getting proper odds to draw to his presumed 4-outer.

Unless I misunderstand the term "suck out." I thought it meant taking the worst of it and getting there. Or does it mean being behind and coming out ahead, favorite or not?

I remember the first time I heard the term. An opponent flopped top pair, I made a straight on the turn, and he made a flush on the river. As he stacked his chips and I licked my wounds he said to me, "Suck and re-suck."

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
but there are obviously games available (at times) where KQ may be approaching awesome status,

[/ QUOTE ]
only in a game that everyone is a overplaying maniac btf and chick-sh*t passive goose who show you what they have after flop while being scared of you like chick of hawk...

anyway like i said yesterday, a turn check would be the best play though betting is forgivable in the heat of battle.

kenny

[nykenny]

if i were u, i'd had faked a check behind half-motion after he checked and asked him, you check too? /images/graemlins/grin.gif and raised him if he said oh no i bet /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

If we can agree that meaning is determined by usage, then locally, arithmetic has no place in the meaning of "suckout." The shortest definition would be "lead change." But sensible users don't waste the word on what they perceive as short-odd situations.


Tommy

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
anyway like i said yesterday, a turn check would be the best play though betting is forgivable in the heat of battle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost, almost, almost, almost found that check. As soon as he did the hitch-almost-4-bet-but-then-just-call-the-3-bet move on the flop, I thought, boy-I-should-really-check-behind-on-the-turn-if-he-checks-the-nuts-to-me.

Heads-up, I definitely would have checked. And I still almost did. But with terrible SB hanging around, I just couldn't quite do it. Almost, man. I'm getting there. Very, very close. In my gut, I knew the right move right there on the flop. Just didn't quite make it.

[Ulysses]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Tommy. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
As to mucking preflop for two cold on the button with KQ, in San Bruno? No way. It's against city ordinance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a solid player open-raising relatively early, would you violate the ordinance?

[nykenny]

Ulysses,

no doubt u are much better than i. i wish i could always play like i post on 2+2. but i am improving. i am training myself to look at things on the poker table with more than just my eyes. hopefully one day i will become alomst as good a player as many of you on 2+2.

kenny

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
hopefully one day i will become alomst as good a player as many of you on 2+2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[M2d]

Hey Ulysses,
as I said in my email to you, I think that this re-raise is very player dependant in this game. interesting how an easy fold in other houses becomes a potential three bet at AJ's. Gotta love the action there.

anyway, I digress. Initially, when you told me who the pfr was, my reaction was to insta-muck. on thinking about it more, though, I realized that I don't always follow this against him, because it's so easy to steal from him if you've shown strength and he respects your game (I'm assuming he does). Given this, I've come all the way around and changed my thinking to "hell of a three bet, nice river".