Learn from my mistakes!

[SacraVia]

Party Poker 0.50/1 (8 handed)
SacraVia has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif and is UTG
Typical game - Button has been bluffing (rather badly)frequently.

SacraVia limps, EP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button limps, SB limps, BB checks

(Should have raised!)

Flop(6 SB): 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, BB checks, SacraVia bets, EP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

Turn(9 BB): 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, BB checks, SacraVia bets, EP1 folds, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls

River(14 BB): Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, BB checks, SacraVia bets, MP2 raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, SacraVia folds, MP2 caps, Button calls

Hate my Preflop play. Should have raised. However, though obvious - I am glad and proud, I folded the river. Use to call those suckers down. Any other comments more than welcome.

Results to follow.

[SacraVia]

Mp2, ironically named PotOdds, is the winner with 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Button Shows T7o for the straight.

On a different note, Pokertracker shows me at negative when playing KQs or KQo. I am .07 bb down on the first and .83 down on the later with a meager win rate of 18%. However, alot of these have been bad beats or against monster. So who knows...

Out of curiousness, whats some of your BB/hr or Win percentage with KQ?

[Carlos]

I don't think you made a single mistake.

You really need to have a lot of hands in your database for these statistics to be meaningful. For what it's worth mine are: 0.48 BB/hand with KQs (winrate=0.21) and 0.15 BB/hand with KQo (winrate=0.25).

Carlos

[Brian]

KQo

383 times, 88 in the Blinds.
Played it 80% of the time.
Raised it pre-Flop 66% of the time.
Average of -.08bb/hand.

KQs

141 times, 27 in the Blind.
Played it 90% of the time.
Raised it pre-Flop 85% of the time.
Average of +.75bb/hand

Database has 45,000 hands. Interestingly, here are my stats for KJ:

KJo

398 times, 88 in blind (talk about coincidence)
Played it 23% of the time.
Raised it pre-Flop 12% of the time (although, I don't think this means 12% of the time that I played it; rather, 12% of the time overall. Which means normally when I played it, I raised with it)
Average of +.43bb/hand


KJs

135 times, 26 in the Blinds
Played it 78% of the time
Raised with it 40% of the time.
Average of +.81bb/hand.


So what does all this mean? Well, the sample size is not large enough, but to me it means that I overrate KQo, and that it should be played much like KJo. I obviously almost always fold KQo to a raise, and I'll usually raise when first in with it. However, I think I treat the hand too much like AJo, which is IMO a much superior hand. The thing that makes me uncomfortable about KQ when I raise with it is that when a hand like Ax calls me and we're heads up, he's actually the favorite. I think KQo plays much better multiway than AJo, and I think when playing it from early position, it's almost muckable. I know many Mid and High stakes posters normally muck KQo in early position, but that's because they are facing tougher opposition. KQo should normally be played in early position I think, but I think I am too aggressive with it.

GuyOnTilt, whose play I respect very much, said that he recently started raising KQo from early position, and that his default play used to be to call with it. I am the exact opposite. Perhaps we can get him to add to the discussion.

-Brian

[Sven]

As for me I only have about 4500 hands played and I also am not doing will with KQo I'm down and I'm up with KQs. I would like to see some of the stats from people that have very large databases, as I know not having a large enough database could be part of the problem. I know that part of my problem lies what position I play these hands with. This could be an interesting topic /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[brian0729]

Hi Scar,
I think I was at your table the other night. I took a huge hit to my bankroll and was playing some .5/1 for a second time. The thing I realized the most at this level (this time around) is that your TPTK is often good until the turn but comprimised on the river. I think you played this hand well and I think the limp from EP with KQo is fine in most games. In these micro limit games though I started to muck KQo in EP because the big unsuited connectors just cant make enough hands if the pot is multiway and of course when you catch a piece of the flop you pay a lot of money to end up losing this can be very frustrating and tilt inducing, be careful.

[Sven]

Sounds like good advice! It was suggested that I remove KQo at the micro games in EP and I did and so far my KQo is starting to make a come back! /images/graemlins/grin.gif I take a stab at it everyonce in a while some times I make and some times I don't but for the most part I don't play that in EP anymore. I think at higher levels that play can be good just depends on table texture at the micro level.

[ramjam]

These are the pokerroom.com (http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/pairStats.php) EV stats for KQo at 1/2 (based on gazillions of hands of actual play):

Total EV statistics for KQ


Your query:

* Pocket cards: KQ
* Position: any
* Players: 10
* Table limit: $1/2


Position
1 0.05
2 0.05
3 0.1
4 0.25
5 0.08
6 0.08
7 0.15
8 0.15
9 0.14
10 0.18

The total average for KQ is 0.16 (regardless of table limit, position and number of players).

You can search for data for other hands and at other limits too.

[Mike Gallo]

Sacra,

Open raise with that hand. You do not want to play KQ off multi way. Raise to elimiate suited trash and weak Aces who might call one but not two.

I think you played the hand correctly.

[cero_z]

Hi SacraVia,
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but the posters who said you played this hand perfectly are wrong.
The least debatable error you made in this hand was your bet on the river. This is a terrible bet. The Qh is the worst card that could fall for you, followed closely by the Th and the 8h. With 5 callers throughout the hand, the chance that someone has either a flush or a Ten is close to 100%. I understand that people play poorly at this limit, but there's almost no way your hand is good here. So, you should check, and make a crying call if it's one bet to you, but definitely fold if it's 2 bets to you. To your credit, you did fold on the end.
As far as the pre-flop play goes, it's complicated. Basically, the S&M line goes: If your raise UTG will narrow the field, then make it; If you know that your raise will still be called in 4 or more places, you are better off folding KQo UTG. If you're going to play the hand well after the flop, an argument can be made for limping; however, I have to say that the details of your post show that you don't yet have enough experience to play this hand out of position. There's no shame in this, of course; it takes a long time to get good enough to get out of line with hands like this and still turn a profit with them. For now, you should fold this hand.
By the way, KQo is a routine fold UTG for many players at the mid-limits (myself included).
Again, I want to stress that I'm posting this to help you, not to be mean or superior.

[SacraVia]

No offense taken. I understand what you are saying exactly and I am far from being an expierenced player - with only a scant few months and 15k hands under my belt. My play has gotten much better but it is still filled with more leaks than a spaghetti strainer.

As for the bet on the river - I agree with you, it was a bad bet. I knew it when the card fell that it was a dagger. Then I disregarded the fact there was 5 to river. This is deffinitely a problem with my game, it reared its head last night when a good hands went bad on the board. Make money by not making mistakes... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

As for preflop, I agree with a Muck/Raise stance. Its improbable that my raise would have knocked it down to 4 as the cold callers are insane in PP - thus mucking the hand may have been the best play (here and in the future).

Thanks for the post cero_z, nothing like the truth.