Did i play this too weak?

[Noodles]

1/2$ truepoker. Passive table.I have A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in SB.
3 limpers,i check and bb checks. There are 2 blinds of equal amount

FLOP
A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
i bet,folded to CO who raises,I 3 bets,CO caps
Turn
9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check,CO betsd i call.
River
2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
I check,CO bets,I call.

[Brian]

Hi Noodles,

You described the table as passive, but is this just before the Flop, or also after the Flop? In other words, would people often limp with big Aces and then let the goose loose on the Flop? Or was this table pretty passive after the Flop as well, in which case you are probably looking at 88 or 55? Either way, I can't blame you for check-calling unless you had a read on the player.

-Brian

[WillMagic]

I'd probably bet the turn. If he raises me, I'll call him and then check/call the river.

Most passive types I know tend to slowplay their sets, so I'd put him on a good ace, or possibly A5. If he raises you again on the turn, then you can slow down. But I think you have the best hand here.

Will

[astroglide]

i think it's imperative to bet the turn or the river here, as a flush draw or an ace with a big stick are the most likely holdings.

[Brian]

Hey guys,

I don't really see what he has to gain by betting the Turn. If he checks, the money will be going into the center regardless if his opponent has a big Ace, and it's likely that the big Ace won't raise, fearing he may have run into a bigger hand. So hes getting the bet in either way. However, he will just be losing more money against 88 and 55.

Sure, most of us would cap the Flop with AK, so thats makes it seem like a likely holding. But not many players do, especially those who are too timid to raise before the Flop with it. Lacking a read on the player in question, I don't think check-calling down is a bad play, if not the correct one.

-Brian

[EDIT]: Considering the topic of this thread and the fact that Noodles posted it, I would not be surprised at all if his opponet had a large Ace. But, were I playing the hand against passive opponents, I would suspect a set.

[WillMagic]

The thing is, if it is a passive table, then if someone had a set they would slowplay it. I really think we're looking at A5 or 85 here, and as a result, I want to ram and jam.

The reason you bet the turn is because you want to bet for value.

Will

[Bob T.]

Especially on a two tone flop, I think that you have at least one more raise before you need to slow down. The flop cap could be right, with a lot of drawing hands, that you are now farther ahead of, and I would look to raise the turn with this hand. If I get three bet, I call, and plan on making a crying call, unless an Ace or eight comes on the river.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see what he has to gain by betting the Turn. If he checks, the money will be going into the center regardless if his opponent has a big Ace, and it's likely that the big Ace won't raise, fearing he may have run into a bigger hand. So hes getting the bet in either way. However, he will just be losing more money against 88 and 55.

[/ QUOTE ]
and he will be giving infinite odds to a flush draw that will take a free card, and this is a signifigantly more likely holding than a set.

failure to stopngo vs probable flush draws is a big leak. he has 2 pair, which is more than enough to stand a turn raise if he is infact beaten.

[Brian]

Hi Astroglide,

You think someone who caps at a loose passive table has a flush draw? If this pot were multiway I would bet every time. But it's not; it is heads up. Heads up play is much different from everything else. Noodles did not provide us with any reads on the player, so I assume a typical player.

Typical players don't cap their flush draws. Typical players also hardly ever cap the Flop unless they have something very good. My point is, his opponent seems to be willing to bet his hand for him, and he is unsure if he is ahead or behind. If his opponent has an Ace, the bet WILL go into the pot either way. If his opponent has smaller two pair, the bet WILL go into the pot either way. Not many people cap the Flop and then check behind on the Turn, so I'd be willing to say that the bet WILL go into the pot if, in the unlikely event, his opponent has a Flush draw (in which case we'll have to assume he's a maniac, and trust me, maniacs cap their Flush draws and then bet them when checked to).

I understand your points. You think he has a Flush draw (which is unlikely lacking a read on the player), or he has a big Ace. And, if there were 3 players in the pot, I would bet it every single time. But I think that different play applies to heads-up. Please, listen to my reasons, and then we can agree to disagree, okay? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[Noodles]

The CO had 2 pair 8s,5s.
I didnt say in my post,but i kind of had a read on the CO.A few hands earlier he played a k-high flush draw really weakly in a board that could have had a boat and won the pot.The other players at the table starting saying things like "why didnt you bet" and stuff.
So when he capped the flop i though he really must have a hand.
Or it could be that he was trying to prove that he wasnt so weak?
It seems a lot of players will chicken out on a multiple board but when heads up get a bit cocky.

[Noodles]

Yeah i agree with you here,especially at true poker.I have never seen anyone cap a flush draw,not even in a family pot.
Happens at party a bit.
The players at true poker are a lot more predictable when they have a good hand they bet it

[Noodles]

You say i should have C/r'd the turn after being capped on the flop?

[astroglide]

people cap flush draws out of position in the party 3/6 all the time - perhaps true is genuinely different. however, the only hand he is losing to is a set. failing to put in a raise on the turn or river is playing too passive.

[Brian]

Hi Astroglide (do you play Magic?),

Okay, we agree to disagree /images/graemlins/smile.gif I agree about your comment about position, but for different reasons. His opponent is actually the one WITH position, and that allows HIM to put in a raise if HE has the best hand. Because our hero is out of position, it is hard for him to put in a raise unless he check-raises. If our hero bets, I think a typical player will call with hands that our hero beats, and raise with hands that our hero loses to. If our hero checks, I think a typical player will bet hands that our hero beats, and also bet hands that our hero loses to.

I don't think our hero is necessarily behind here, although I do think that a typical player won't cap the Flop heads up with a Flush draw or with a big Ace. I just think that check-calling is a fine play, because his opponent is obviously willing to bet his hand for him. Do you feel that good about your hand when you bet the Turn and you are raised?

-Brian

[GuyOnTilt]

On the turn, since you don't give any information about the CO, I'd rank your options as follows:

1) Check and call.
2) Bet and call down a raise.
3) Check and raise and call down a 3-bet.

I do agree with Brian that checking and calling is a very viable option here. Out of position, you don't want to be faced with a 3-bet, so check-raising is out of the question. If you bet, then hands that you beat will just call down (AK, small 2-pair), but if you check then those same hands will bet for you, meaning there's no real difference if that is what your opponent is holding. If your opponent is holding a set, however, then your turn bet will get raised, costing you one extra bet.

The only way I'd bet the turn is if my opponent were capable of capping the flop with a flush draw, or if he were capable of raising me with a worse hand. The only worse hand here that my opponent would have if A5s if the CO is reasonable, so the latter reason doesn't add much value to my decision.

If you had given more info on the CO, it would be easier to evaluate the turn. Would he limp with AK, AQ? Would he automatically slowplay a set till the turn? Would he cap the flop with a strong draw? What are his PF standards? Is he passive or aggressive? Loose or tight? I feel like I keep repeating myself, but I'll say it again anyways...NOTICE TO ALL POSTERS: START GIVING MORE INFO IN YOUR HAND POSTS!!!

If your opponent is decent I think you lose to 55 or 88, win over A5s, or chop with A8s.

GoT

[Bob T.]

You say i should have C/r'd the turn after being capped on the flop?

I think that would be reasonable. I thought that you had too much hand to just check/call on the turn and river.

At the time that I first read your post, I somehow read that the hand was played on party, and I think there are enough maniacs there that the play would be correct there. Thinking about it, and rereading I saw that it was on true, and there are fewer real aggressive players at low stakes there, so I think that maybe your line was OK. I still don't think one more checkraise would be seriously out of line there.

[Noodles]

Oops sorry i did a have a bit of info on the CO,see my results post.
Although i did post results before you posted this reply. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Brian]

Hi Guy,

This may be the Jack Daniels in me speaking, but I am glad that we agree and I love you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian