Think before you answer...

[Ed Miller]

15-30 at the Bellagio. There are several very soft spots in this game. This hand involves three of them. Sister open-raises from EP. Sister is absurdly over-aggressive, especially preflop. Her open-raise means any two face cards, any suited ace, any pair, possibly any suited king and some crappy offsuit aces. Maybe some more crap.. who knows? She seems to know full well that I mean business when I come in, though. Also, I don't recall ever seeing her bluff-raise on a big bet street.

Soft spot cold-calls. He's loose and passive I'd say, though I don't know his play well. I have the A /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP and 3-bet. Another soft spot calls 3 cold. He tends to be aggressive after the flop in wildly inappropriate spots. He rode 5 bets preflop in one hand, and then started going nuts on a very benign-looking board after the flop. He mucked his hand on the river when called by both KK and AA. Everyone calls my 3-bet and it's 4-handed to the flop.

Flop is K /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Checked to me, I bet, and all three call.

Turn is the J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Checked to me. What is my action?

[Thomsen]

wiht three others in the pot i would bet and fold if raised

[Ed Miller]

wiht three others in the pot i would bet and fold if raised

I could easily have eight outs against a raiser. If I bet, am raised, and it is headsup back to me, I think calling the raise is a no-brainer.

[Ray Zee]

in a game in the u.s. for sure you will never win playing like that as often draws make this raise and always two pair hands, both of which you stay in against.

[Duke]

You bet, expecting to get popped by KJ or a semi-bluff, and if the raise doesn't come you bet the river for value, only folding to a raise there. You'll call a turn raise, but probably fold if it's 2 more bets back to you. That's going to be a judgement call.

~D

[Chris Alger]

Just check. All the made hands are waiting, all kinds of fireworks can break out even if they aren't and it might even be a mistake to fold to a double raise. Plus you induce the bet and overcalls on the river if there's no action.

[ZeeJustin]

I would bet the turn and check the river. If you are check raised, there is enough money in the pot to justify a call. If check raised, my river play would depend on where the check raise came from, as well as the river-card (obviously).

[Clarkmeister]

Must be a trick question. You bet and pray the lunatic behind you knocks out the other two with a raise.

[David Steele]

At first I felt betting was right, but you said to think about it, which I did and came up with the idea of betting. On further reflection though I think you should bet (and call a check-raise for sure).

D.

[Depraved]

I guess you considering checking? I assume checkraising didn't cross your mind since there's only one person left to act and he didn't raise the flop.

I can't think of any good reasons to check. The maniac didn't show signs of insanity on the last street. The "Sister" doesn't bluff on later streets. It doesn't seems like you're about to get put to the ultimate test here, so I would bet for +EV; charge the draws and second best hands - it doesn't seem like a complex problem - wonder what I'm missing.

[mike l.]

it didnt take a long period of thought to recognize that that J is an ugly card. nevertheless if they are truly softies then they can still be chasing along w/ a bunch of cards you dont want to allow to get to the river without paying the proper price of $60.

[mike l.]

"It doesn't seems like you're about to get put to the ultimate test here"

this was very funny!

[M.B.E.]

Check. Then when the case ace falls on the river, get into a raising war with the initial preflop raiser, who has A3.

[Ulysses]

Thinking, thinking, thinking.... Bet.

[PokerPrince]

Bet.


PokerPrince

[rkiray]

Perhaps I'm crazy here, but I'm going a different way than everyone else. Against the opponents you describe I see no reason to assume you arn't ahead. The player left to act is aggresive in inappropriate spots. Check, he will probably bet, you can trap eveyone and check raise.

[bobgreen]

There are 8 big bets in the pot, no?
Hands you are ahead of, but which have reasonable odds to catch you are QQ, TT, 88, KQ, QJ, JT, T9, 98, 87. These fit the preflop action. You cannot get any of these to fold, no matter what the last-to-act does, right?
66-22 might fold to your turn bet, but they aren't too dangerous.
I don't think you have any control over who stays in, only over how much money goes in. If last-to-act will bet if checked to more than half of the time, then checkraising shows a profit.
If last-to-act bets and sister or the passive checkraise, you know you are beat, but you might have 8 outs so you have to call. If you face three bets you have to fold.
On the other hand, if you bet (the turn) and last to act raises and sister or passive reraises you still may have 8 outs, but may face a cap so you're in a pickle.
On the other, other hand, if you bet and last-to-act raises and sister and passive just call, you should be three-betting and showing a handsome profit. So if last-to-act will raise with an inferior hand to AA more than x percent of the time, then betting makes more than trying to check-raise.
I believe your action should be to get as much money in the pot as possible and this is a function of how often last-to-act will bet if checked to, versus how ofter he'll raise if bet to. The more he will bet and the less he will raise, the more you should check. The less he will bet and the more he will raise, the more you should bet.

[mikelow]

Check. If it's checked around, you don't lose very much.
On the river you will have a decision to make, depending on the card.

If a scary card comes, you may only have to face one bet.
And if it's a bet and a raise to you on the river, you can fold.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
in a game in the u.s. for sure you will never win playing like that as often draws make this raise and always two pair hands, both of which you stay in against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray, did you delete words at random intervals from the above passage? I have no idea what you are trying to say /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[glen]

I think he's saying that if you fold everytime you are check-raised in this particular situation you will lose overall. It seems rather clear to me. What I am confused about is the "in the u.s." part. Are there whole countries where no one will check-raise in this situation unless you are drawing completely dead?

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in a game in the u.s. for sure you will never win playing like that as often draws make this raise and always two pair hands, both of which you stay in against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ray, did you delete words at random intervals from the above passage? I have no idea what you are trying to say /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Makes sense to me. The previous poster had recommended betting the turn, then folding to a checkraise. Ray's response said that this play is negative EV in a typical U.S. game because the checkraiser could easily have either a draw (against which your hand is a favourite) or two pair (against which you have proper odds to call).

[astroglide]

i thought, but it was a pretty empty exercise. bet and call a raise back (if applicable).

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi MK:

This one is easy. Given the large pot, you need to make the play that maximizes your chance of winning. That's your main consideration.

Clearly checking will not accomplish this because the player behind you may also check. So this leaves betting since that's your only other option.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Ed Miller]

I posted this hand because a friend and I disagreed about how I should play the turn. The reason is that the turn card is a terrible card for me.

As I was playing the hand, I felt that there was a very high chance that I would be checkraised, but that I needed to bet anyway to protect a large pot against three opponents. My friend thought it was so likely that the jack beat me, that I needed to check (and call one bet or probably fold to a bet and a raise).

His idea does have merit, as if the jack beats me 100% of the time, obviously I need to check, as my outs (aces, and perhaps board pairs) are not likely to make either of my other opponents a better hand than mine. So the question is, how often does the jack beat me.

Anyway, I bet, LP folded, Sister raised, EP called two and I called. River was the 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Sister bet, EP folded, and I called. Sister had KJo.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I posted this hand because a friend and I disagreed about how I should play the turn. The reason is that the turn card is a terrible card for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm missing why the Jack is so especially terrible. Is it more terrible than a Queen or Ten? Is it as terrible as a 7, 9, or King? How much more terrible than a 5,6, or 8? What's left? A,2,3, and 4. It just seems to me like there are many cards close in terribleness to a Jack, and not betting on all of those cards is clearly wrong. But maybe I'm missing something here.

[mikelow]

Really, many cards aren't that good for him. It's not that the J /images/graemlins/club.gif is a terrible card, but it's not a good card either. He has a vulnerable hand in a multiway pot. I'd be
rooting for a red four on the turn.

[Tommy Angelo]

I think thinking is overrated.

[Coilean]

I think you're thinking too much about thinking.

[J.A.Sucker]

I bet first and think later.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Really, many cards aren't that good for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my point. Are you going to check on every card except for a non-club A,2,3 or 4?

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be rooting for a red four on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be rooting for the Ace of hearts.

[mikelow]

No.

[Diplomat]

Followed by the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. You could conjure that up, couldn't you?

("I think I'm going to make my hand, so I bet")

-Diplomat

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Followed by the 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif. You could conjure that up, couldn't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man, that reminds me of a hand from last night. The guy to my left is an idiot who is on an incredible rush - he went all-in w/ $150 and now has over $2000. He has taken to raising every hand. I find KK UTG and decide to limp re-raise his auto-raise. For the first time in 45 minutes, he limps as well. Then, the aggressive player after him limps for the first time in ages. 6 of us see the flop.

KT7 w/ two clubs. Nice. I bet, idiot and aggressive player call. Turn is another 7. I go 5 bets on the turn vs. the aggressive player who has Ac7c. No 7 on the river for him. Nice.