General overcard question

[Hellrazor]

Probably my weakest part of my game right now is knowing when after I pre-flop raise (say with AKo or AQo) do I call a single bet, raise out if checked to - or simply check/fold (when the flop misses you entirely)? I don't have access to my database right now so I can't post my sample hands - but are there general guidelines?

With both of these hands I generally bet out til I hit resistance - but in the microlimits people will hit top pair and go into check call mode - I am constantly getting sucked out on these hands. (I'm not complaining on the call stations I love it when I hit my flop..) Is it just simply correct to check and fold to a bet?

Thanks in advance.

[Nottom]

Hate to say it, but it depends.

How many players are in, what is the flop, what kind of players are involved, what overcards you have, do you have a gutshot or any backdoor draws. All these things are factors in what you should do on the flop.

[crockpot]

do I call a single bet

depends on some factors, such as the texture of the board and whether you have backdoor straight/flush potential. by texture of the board, i mean be less likely to call with it if two connected cards appear or two suited cards appear, and probably don't call at all if both are true, unless you have something like a backdoor nut flush.

raise out if checked to

how many opponents are there? if you're facing one or two players, go ahead and bet. against three or more at these limits, attempting a steal is suicide.

or simply check/fold

when your hand has no potential except to make top pair, this is never a bad play. remember, it's not like your six outs are to the nuts.

don't invariably bet out. remember, players at this level are not very aggressive. bet once on the flop if it's shorthanded, but then go into check/fold mode unless you hit help on the turn.

[cold_cash]

I think this depends on quite a few things. If you're up against 8 players, I would check and fold; the flop couldn't have missed everybody, and you're now drawing to 6 outs to make a hand that might not be the best one. Of course, if the pot is big enough you might be getting the odds to call at least a single bet on the flop.

If the pot is heads up, on the other hand, it might pay to play your overcards aggressively. This depends on what type of player you're up against, of course.

My theory is this: If I've raised pre-flop and end up with 2 overcards after the flop, I will bet out if there are 3 or less players in the pot with me and it's been checked to me. I will very seldom call a bet, however. If there are 4 or more players playing, I usually check/fold.

I'm sure my way of playing overcards is flawed in more ways than one, but in my very limited experience I believe it saves me money to play them this way, at least at the micro-limit levels I'm playing at. This is a tough and common trouble spot for a lot of players (including me), I'm guessing.

[Mangatang]

I've never heard anyone talk about counting the 6 outs you may have with overcards. If the board looks nonthreatning, is it correct to call a bet as long as you're getting 7:1?

[cold_cash]

Why wouldn't you count your outs?

[SacraVia]

Nottom is correct. It depends on the flop.

WLLHE has a descent few page concept/theory/advise that works well. He basically states that you call a bet as long as you have something more than just two overcards even if its a long shot ie, Gutshot Straight, backdoor flush, etc. then you call/bet on the flop.

The other option is to bet in trying to get the free card on the turn. That can work as well. Just realize that calling to the river is a bad play (IMHO) with just overcards because the times that you do get it on the river will not outweigh the times you dont.

That being said - this is a very difficult hand for me to play as well. However, I also think its one of the biggest leaks in my game. Realize that by tossing the hand on the flop - you may be making more money than calling it down to the river. Check your records and see if calling it down is really profitable....

[Mangatang]

Personally, I do. I've just never read any advise to make a call based solely on overcard outs.

[Hellrazor]

I was afraid of that.... but anyway that seems to be the key to hold em in general. There is rarely an "always do this" situation.

[Hellrazor]

Thanks for this response. It makes a lot of sense to me. I'll have to stop thinking I am going to get ppl to fold by representing a high pair. Especially when a lot of LL players will call down with a pair of 2's.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never heard anyone talk about counting the 6 outs you may have with overcards. If the board looks nonthreatning, is it correct to call a bet as long as you're getting 7:1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you need to consider the odds you are getting, but the problem is (especially with aces) is you never know if they are good. I generally count my overcard outs as closer to 4 than 6 with more than a couple people in the pot.

[Webster]

I know how you feel. For the past 4 days I've been losing monet NOT because of my losses but because I just can not win a hand. I'm constantly winnint 5% of the games I play.

I get AK, AQ AT on the button, I raise, 4 people see my raise and rags come. If I bet they just limp among with bottom pair and beat me. OR - the bet and I have to limp along and THEN get beat OR they bet I raise knocking NOBODY out and I get beat with middle pair.

I've won 4 out of 12 AKs or o this week just because flops are not hitting.