Why be rude to someone who plays for fun?

I play in hold'em in Vegas from time to time and am in no way an expert on the game. I play for fun and entertainment value, I make money elsewhere. If I feel like calling some "great poker player"'s preflop raise with 93off that's my business. And if I happen to beat his AA with two pair, 9's and 3's, I shouldn't have to go through verbal abuse. Even though there are definite odds to each play and my play wasn't good, poker is still gambling, and if someone can't handle the risk they shouldn't play. I just play for fun but it's not fun when some jerk is rude to me.

If this play is made out of ignorance, and the player is just there for fun, I think it is wrong to abuse him. But if he is just looking to put a bad beat on someone, and is definitley showing disrespect on purpose, he deserves what he gets.


I don't abuse players at the table, but I wouldn't be friendly with someone who knows better and disrespects my raise on purpose. OTOH, if he just didn't know any better, I would still be friendly with him.


If you read these forums, you know better than to call a raise with 93. Maybe you just lack discipline.

Wow, Brett, first time ever I read your words in shock.


"If this play is made out of ignorance, and the player is just there for fun, I think it is wrong to abuse him. But if he is just looking to put a bad beat on someone, and is definitley showing disrespect on purpose, he deserves what he gets."


Let's talk about the millions of acts of rudeness at poker that you don't see but you know go on. Are you saying that each act of rudeness can only be judged to be rude or not by someone or some group who is empowered to decide if disrespect of the meaning of a raise was done on purpose or simply through ignorance?


What the heck difference does it matter why someone, anyone, makes any bet or fold or raise or seat change or buy in or any of the other countless etiquettely and ethically pure decisions that each of us make many times over? Aren't we all exactly equally entitled to choose as we please? And if that is so, then how can any one decision be somehow judged worthy of rude backlash? And just who exactly has this authority?


Tommy

I think anybody has the right to play whatever hand they want since they are using there own money. And don't deserve to be criticized for it. Everybody has there own reasons for playing poker. Some for fun, some trying to make money but don't know how to correctly, some that do make money. Whatever the reason they have the right to play there cards without getting backlash because you don't agree with there call. Not everybody is gonna play as good as you.


If you think they are intentionally playing the hand to put a bad beat on you because they don't like you, or just miserable people who want to upset others by snappping them off so everybody is as miserable as them. Well thats a little different, but still i'm not gonna get upset and criticize. I'm gonna tap the table and say nice hand and laugh to myself saying how sweet is this? Someone trying to snap me off is gonna make me even more money. It might hurt a little when it happens but resist the temptation to say something for 2 reasons. 1) you would have given them what they craved. The satisfaction that they got to you and made you feel miserable. 2) you want them to keep doing it because in reality he's making you money everytime he calls your raise with garbage. How can anybody be upset when there getting people to call there raise with 93 off. For whatever reason they have whether its fun and they are gambling, or if its to put a bad beat on you. You gotta love it so don't say a word!


Now the one pet peeve i do have is the slow roll. This temptation should be resisted as well, but sometimes can't help myself from getting revenge. What you really should do is let them do whatever silliness they want and not get involved. Keep your mind clear and not piss them off. As they might tighten up if they think there's a war on now. But there are times when i can't help myself from getting revenge. I'll not react when they do it to me. Just remember it and wait for my time to spring one on them. I'll wait for a really big pot that we are head up on the river, then when he shows his cards do the i can't believe he snapped me off again look, tap the table, shake your head back and forth a little saying no no not again. Then when he starts to break a smile, or starts to rub it in like saying the cards aren't gonna change(as this type would do), spring the surprise! I would only do something as devious as this against really big scumbags.

Sorry Brett, I disagree. According to the rules you have a choice whether to fold, call, or check, and I can do any of those things whether they are profitable to me or not. What's wrong with laying a bad beat on someone? Aren't most people trying to win, thereby beating the others?

This is a whole other topic but I also believe a blackjack player has every right to take another card, even if it's the dealer's bust card, without having to put up with verbal abuse from other players. Gamblers have choices when they play and these are entirely separate from game etiquette.

If you don't like playing with someone then you can always go to another table, in any game.

There are plenty of places to play in Vegas. If someone is rude after you beat their big pair with 9-3, take your winnings and try another place.


Good Luck


Mark

we've all seen this happen. the first question in my mind to the guy complainin is "do ya really want him to play better?" i sometimes have been known to mutter untidings at times, but never at the player. only at the $*@(#@!! cards. ive had players misinterpret it thinking its aimed at them, to which i smooth it out with em. making sure they know im not pissed at them. just the cards. then we both tend to smirk a little. ive seen people throw chips at each other, cards, and much worse. Why? if they take it that personal, even to the extent of 'revenge', as one poster wrote, maybe their ego is a little too big. are you there to win money or to impress people with your skill? they also look more like an idiot by chasing off the bigger fish on the table. boy, that makes the whole table of solid players happy...


just because ya might be a decent player, doesnt mean the fish are gonna erect a statue and just give ya chips for you allowing them to be in your presence. sorry if ya gotta work a little for it.


b

"if he is just looking to put a bad beat on someone, and is definitley showing disrespect on purpose, he deserves what he gets."


I don't follow this, Brett. Anyone playing any hand is looking to beat the other player(s). I guess we define "bad beat" as a loss which defies the odds. If I'm the guy with the A-A, I'd love to have an opponent who cold calls my raise with 9-3.


If he beats me, I say either nothing, or nice hand. I don't understand how anyone can say something rude to another person because of the way they play their cards. Then again, I don't understand how players can be rude to dealers because they dealth them a losing hand. But I see it all the time.

brett, if someone calls your raise with 93o to "intentionally disrespect your raise," and you aren't happy about that, perhaps there are some things you need to think about.

All right, after reading the responses to my post I admit I was wrong. Maybe I was just in a bad mood from working on the snowblower all morning.


Obviously, anyone who calls a raise with 93 is ignorant and shouldn't be ridiculed or criticized for it. Their motivation really doesn't matter.


I have been justly chastised.

Yes Yes Yes Yes. Alright already.


Did I ever tell you I was a business major?

Slow rolling is something that has never bothered me. I just don't understand why you find it irritating. No one has ever explained it to my satisfaction.

Maybe, but at least I post my responses in the correct place.

I've already reversed myself below. But I'm curious, since you are intelligent enough to know better, why would you play that way? Doesn't it make more sense to do what is most profitable? Isn't it more fun to win?

I don't say anything to players who put a beat on me either.


The reason some players do, and the reason they abuse the dealer, is that they are very frustrated with losing and they need to vent. Most of them are not horrible people, they just don't control their emotions.


I don't like to lose, but one of the biggest steps I ever made in poker was to look at losses intellectually rather than emotionally. OTOH, I think when I stopped stressing over it was about the same time I started to get fat /images/glasses.gif.

Brett,


Speaking of geting fat (I need to lose some pounds fast), do you notice any tendency to eat a lot more of the comped food when stuck? I find I average 400 calories per hour stuck, and about 200 per hour when I'm doing OK.


Regards,


Rick

I think you're onto something here. Perhaps future literature on gaming theory will include new breakthroughs on gobbling theory. Standard deviation, expected variance, beltroll requirements. Lots of room to explore.


Tommy

When I started playing poker I would regularly call raises with hands like 93os. Often when I would win I would get a ton of abuse. After being abused for being stupid for the umpteenth time I began to think about why people were abusing me, started to read a few books and this forum and (I think) have improved as a result. My point is that abusing bad players makes those players think more about the game and can force them to improve - that's what happened with me - so abusing bad players is actually counter-productive. There is one particular player on Paradise who ALWAYS abuses players for making stupid plays (Are you reading this pokerhoni?). The last time he did this the bad player got so pissed he left the table - thats another reason not to berate bad players.

When i say i try to get "revenge". It has to do with standing up for yourself in a way. And or teaching a rude person a lesson. Its sort of like if a person slaps you in the face lightly. It wasn't done to cause physical pain, it is done to upset you. Would you be annoyed if they did that? What about if he pissed on your shoes under the table, would that bother you? Or would you let this go as well because you are there to make money? These might be a little more extreme but the intention is the same, to upset and annoy you for no other reason except they are hateful, miserable scum. Yes i am there to make money. But when someone who is unprovoked purposely tries to be mean and upset me for no reason i take offense. I won't let it affect my play. Except when i get the chance i will much enjoy making him feel as miserable as he was trying to make me feel.

Odd that you find it irritating and upseting when someone calls your raise with 93 off if they know its a bad call. Even though they may be just doing it because there on tilt, or are hoping to get lucky. But are not upset when someone is intentionally trying to aggrivate and upset you for no reason. What is there to explain about slow rolling except that? Why do you think it is being done? Why does this not upset you? But a person playing badly with no ill intentions does upset you? I really don't get the logic.

A useful Latin phrase:


"Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur."


("Oh! Was I speaking Latin again? Silly me. Sometimes it just sort of slips out.")

I was playing in a home game, with three good players, a couple of wannabees, and three terrible players.


One of the terrible players played a hand and put a bad beat on one of the wannabees. The Wannabee went off on the terrible player and told him how stupid his play was, etc. etc. etc..


The terrible player then said, 'you know whats really stupid. You think I come here to play for the money. I come here every week and lose. Obviously I'm not coming here for the money. I come here for other things.'


I think thats what's important to remember, we all play the game for money, but we don't all play for THE MONEY. Even those that do play for THE MONEY, it isn't just THE MONEY that we are playing for. If it was, most of us would be better off getting a job, or another part time job.


Those that are playing for entertainment, or friendship, or to pass some time, deserve to get there money's worth, so that they will come back and choose poker as their entertainment option next time. You don't reaaly want them to take their chances with a slot machine, just because a slot machine wont yell at them or try and embarass them.


good luck,

Bob T.

Whether it's odd or not, slow rolling has never bothered me. Usually it's done because the slow roller doesn't know he has the winning hand, and realizes it after looking at the board an at your hand. It is almost never done vindictively.


You still haven't explained why you are so offended by it. What difference does it make if you see your opponent's hand now or a couple of minutes from now. It's still the winning hand.


I suspect that you are actually angry at yourself for assuming you had the winning hand and overlooking the possibility that you were beat.

I hope I never have the opportunity to ask him in person. /images/wink.gif

I don't even think it's possible to increase my intake, stuck or not. But really, when I'm stuck I'm usually thinking about leaving. Therefore, I am not as likely to order food since I might not be there when it comes.


Who are we going to call Pretty Boy if you get big and fat?

During a recent marathon session (my last night in LA), I discussed with another player that there should be mandatory breaks during late night games. During these breaks, players would be required to get up and exercise along with the people on ESPN2, which is always playing on graveyard shift.


Either that or they could pass out mats and we could all take a nap.

Lenny Martin, a very successful high limit Vegas pro, posted on 2+2 some time back that he thought berating bad players made them stay at the table and try to teach him a lesson.


I guess it could work either way.

if anyone does anything outside the betting ring to me, thats a whole different story and i consider it personal. its apples and oranges. one of the keys to the game is psychological. if you can make a person play differently than he normally would and get him off his game a little, out of his comfort zone, your in a better position. though im not a big fan of the slowroll, primarily because it changes the rythym of the game for a hand or 2, but i still wouldnt try to get revenge, other than to just take his chips along with my other enemies (sic) at the table. the green felt is the battlefield, your chips are your infantry. i told this to a guy who watched me checkraise and bet into a buddy. he asked me "how can ya do that to your friend?" i said pointing to the rail on the table, "outside the ring were pals, iniside....its war."


besides i dont think my chips would respect me otherwise....lololol


b

Brett, I don't really care if I come out ahead at the end of the session or not; it's nice to win some pots here and there, especially fun with long odds. It's the same reason someone plays craps, bacarrat, slots, keno, or roulette: the fun of gambling. The house doesn't get mad if we win money off them; why should an "tight, experienced" player be angry and rude about a bad beat when they know damn well the possibility of it exists?

What you are describing is not a "slow roll". You are describing someone who turns his hand over slowly because he didn't realize he had the best hand or wasn't sure. This would not bother me. It is not being done vindictively. A slow roll is when someone vindictively does not trun his hand over when he knows he has you beat to may you think you have the best hand for no other purpose except to be a dick. Maybe his purpose is to put you on tilt as well but its still being a dick period. I don't let it bother my play. This would be making his slow roll play correct. Instead i don't let it affect my play i just realize when i sistuation comes up that the situation is reversed i'm gonna make him feel pain. I'm gonna let him count the money, let him lament for a moment about what he is gonna use his new found wealth on, maybe to put his foot in his mouth by saying something like the cards won't change if you look at them longer which is a classic jerks comment when he beats you. Then spring the surprise. And you and they know you got him. It feels soooo good. I'm surprised you don't know the difference between a slow roll and someone turning the best hand over late. This is common knowledge. It is not because i'm angry because i thought i had the best hand. Sometimes i don't think i have the best hand until they tap the table, shake there head like they have nothing, then when you turn your hand over to speed up the action they turn it over and say thats no good when they were first to act and should have just turned there hand over in the first place.


Do you now understand why it bother me? When it is being done vindictively to anger or upset me when it was unprovoked. A person who does htis for no reason has no class, they are garbage.

I can honestly say I don't remember this ever happening to me. Where do you play? What limits?


Maybe when it was done to me, they realized that it didn't bother me and they didn't do it again.


Even if it's vindictive, I don't see why it upsets you. It sounds silly to me. And I think if you get upset and plot revenge, and look for ways to get even, the slow roller has won.


Shrug it off.

I don't really care if I come out ahead at the end of the session or not; it's nice to win some pots here and there, especially fun with long odds. It's the same reason someone plays craps, bacarrat, slots, keno, or roulette: the fun of gambling.


I guess that's the difference between a poker player and a gambler. Most of us don't ever play the other games you mention.


The house doesn't get mad if we win money off them


Not true. Consistent winners at any game will not be allowed to continue playing. This is most common in BJ, but happens often in Sports also.


why should an "tight, experienced" player be angry and rude about a bad beat when they know damn well the possibility of it exists?


You're right he shouldn't. I've already touched on a couple of reasons they act this way. Playing poker for a living is very difficult and stressful, and some people's temperments cause them to react this way. As far as they are concerned, you just took food out of their mouth.

I play 15-30 at the bellagio. I'm not saying it happens frequently. But it does happen. I find it amazing to say you haven't seen a vindictive slow roll before. Unless your brand new to the game i can't see it possible. As everybody has experienced a good slow roll before.


It doesn't get me angry where i'm gonna play bad to get them back. It just makes we want to teach an ass a lesson, so when the situation arrives paybacks a bitch. And it usually works. Why do you find this silly? If he called you a moron or blew smoke in your face(if you were in a place that allows smoking) on purpose for no reason other than to be an jerk would you then take offense? It is very similar. It is being rude and cruel to try to upset someone for no reason. I find it silly that you find that silly, but don't think its silly to say if a player knows better and still calls my raise with 93 off that you would take offense and feel they deserve to be berated? Why would you take offense by that? They are not doing anything rude to you? It makes no sense? Because there not playing there top game means you need to rip them a new a-hole? What is the purpose of this? Is it so next time they throw there hand away and only call your raises with premeium hands? Thats not good? Thats silly!

if youre ever in LA and see a fat kid turned around in his seat between hands paying attention to a big plate (or two) of free dessert playing 9-18 or 10-20 and chanting to himself "eat to forget, eat to forget.." that's me.

Brett,


The super live one Lenny might be up against at a big game in the Belagio will often be a rich tourist playing poker just for that night and I would think playing against the local pros (most of whom he probably out earns) is an ego thing for such a player. So Lenny's ploy might very well be the way to go at THAT level and in THAT game.


For the rest of us, I think we should treat the occasional player who wants to blow off a little steam playing 93 offsuit with respect.


Regards,


Rick

Jessica,


Excellent post. Regarding this person at Paradise, doesn't anyone complain? If so, why won't Paradise bar this person since it is so easy to verify his or her behavior?


Regards,


Rick


PS If you don't mind my asking, what limits and games does "pokerhoni" play?

Bob,


I think yours and Jessica's post above should be read by about 40% of the players in Los Angeles. But then again, the players who need to read it wouldn't. Sigh.


Regards,


Rick

I agree with u.

Last week I was watching a 3/6 hold'em headsup at paradise.

There was a medium-good player and an other player who was gambling.

After something like one hour the gambling player was busted.

The gambling player asked how to put more money on the table. Response : reload. He asked again cause he really didn't know. And with a rude attitude the medium player said, if u want to play with me again, reload.

Why people are so rude ? I'm wondering. The medium player couldn't understand that the other player was only playing for gambling ?

Some guys should learn how to in live in society before playing poker for money


PS. Sorry for my english, not my natural language

Well - I don't think Pokerhoni recognises it is a problem. The last time it occured I asked him to come to a play money heads up table with me so I could explain why his actions were irritating me in private. He mistook this as a challenge and refused. He plays $3-$6. I wouldn't really want to report him as I don't honestly believe there is any real malice in his actions, he just doesn't realise that he's got it all wrong! Perhaps when his pair of aces holds up against the guy who calls him all the way to the river with a pair of deuces, he'll realise why he should be saying nh to the same guy when he hits that magical 2 on the river.

Jessica,


I think one of the first steps to being an excellent poker player is to have respect for all your opponents, especially at the lower limits. The person that lost with their big pair is ruining the fun atmosphere for the rest of the players. Now, the rest of the players at the table will develop a vendetta to beat that tight mouthy player. Futhermore, the bad player will start playing tighter and so will the rest of the table.


Since, this happens mostly at the lower limits I recommend that you leave the table, because this influences other players to start playing better. There are plenty of places to play low-limit poker in Vegas, so you might as well play where the players are friendly and enjoying themselves.


Years ago when Treasure Island had a poker room I was playing a low-limit game. I was an extremely tight player, but I never said anything to anyone because even if I lost a hand I knew they were there to gamble.


Well, it was after midnight on a Saturday night. I was raking in the chips, and had well over $300 profit. I can't remember the hand exactly, but I'll never forget the player. He was sitting on my left. Of course I had a pair of aces, the game was loose with alot of callers. I bet out on the flop and this guy raised me. He was drunk, and said I'm going to beat you and keep on raising you. Well, I got kind of scared, but my hand was too good. Anyway, I ended up with a full house and he had a flush. I just called him down. Two other players at the table were criticizing me for not raising on the river, but the actions of my opponent, plus being late, I was tired. After that hand I got up and left.


Good Luck


Mark

Anyone who plays this game seriously should listen very closely to what Mr. "POKERISAFUNHOBBY" is saying here. The loose/bad players are the ones who pay the tight/good players. If there weren't bad players, the good ones couldn't win. If people didn't call raises with 93o, we couldn't make money by raising with premium hands. Here we have it straight from the horse's mouth, a loose, recreational player, admitting that he plays for fun, knows that he is playing "bad," and doesn't care, because he is playing for reasons other than simply extracting the maximum possible theoretical profit. Anyone who pisses this guy off and drives him away from the game has committed the cardinal sin of poker. They should have said "thanks for playing."


It should be noted that there are many "bad" players who make many really atrocious plays. We all know this. However, some of these players are actually very smart people, doctors, lawyers, scientists, writers, the list goes on. They may in fact be highly intelligent, but not necessarily well read in the subject of poker strategy. They are playing for fun, gambling for recreation, not profit. They don't care if they are playing a losing game, that's not why they came to the table. So if some punk-ass hotshot professional poker player (or other aspiring "good" player) starts lecturing them about their bad play, not only are they committing the cardinal sin of poker, they may be assuming that someone making a stupid play in poker is a stupid person. Assume=ASS out of U and ME. Let 'em play their cards the way they want. Settle for your theoretical profit, and accept that you will take many, many, MANY bad beats. Get some towels for crying in if you can't handle it, but don't lecture and piss off someone calling a raise with 93o*.


Dave in Cali


*93o? you must be a real MORON! ;-)

Excellent post Dave! I enjoy reading your stuff, keep it up!

wouldn't you WANT someone with 93o to call your raise with AA, even if you KNEW they were doing it solely out of disrespect, and they knew better? Seems to me you just made a theoretical profit as soon as he said "call."


Dave in Cali

Because you're an impotent asshole with a baby dick, that's why. I can't think of another reason. If I'm sitting at a table with several players routinely calling with hands similar to 9-3o, I know I'm in the right spot. When they get up and leave for any reason, it's a bummer, man. If you're guilty of this, then it's a flaw in your game. A flaw that costs all of the good players at a table money. The good players, who are at peace with the size of their manhood, should stand up to baby dick and try to make the loose player feel wanted and comfortable.