2 hands..should I bet the river?

[TheRake]

This table is farely tight aggressive (even though these hands don't look so) with a couple bad players in the mix. Most hands are going to SD but usually only 2 players. There is a fair amount of pre-flop raising.

**Hand 1**
Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
TheRake has J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is MP2

EP2 limps, MP1 limps, TheRake raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, EP2 calls, MP1 calls

Flop(8 SB): 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, EP2 checks, MP1 checks, TheRake bets, BB calls, EP2 folds, MP1 calls

Turn(6 BB): 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, MP1 checks, TheRake bets, BB calls, MP1 folds

River(8 BB): A/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, TheRake checks

BB is one of the weak players at this table.
He shows J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif


**Hand 2**
Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
TheRake has J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is CO

UTG limps, EP2 limps, TheRake limps, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks

Flop(4 SB): J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, UTG checks, EP2 checks, TheRake bets, BB folds, UTG folds, EP2 calls

Turn(3 BB): 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP2 checks, TheRake bets, EP2 calls

River(5 BB): A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP2 checks, TheRake checks

EP2 shows K /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Should I have even played this hand? I figured this was a chance to see the flop cheaply with no raises and actually thought I would pick up 1 more caller before the BB.

Thanks,
TheRake

[Sven]

Hand 2 I think you were right to limp in with J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Post Flop play here is very important because it's very easy to have the second best hand.

In both hands if you think you have the best hand I would bet the river and call any raise.

Just my 2 zinc cents for what there worth /images/graemlins/smile.gif I would like to see what some of the old hands on here suggest as I'm a newbie /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[crockpot]

hand 1 - i'm giving up on telling people not to raise with jacks preflop in this situation. apparently they never listen anyway.

i think a river bet here is fine. naturally you are out of there if someone check-raises, but at 1/2 you may get a crying call from any pair.

hand 2 - this limp won't get you rich, but it is probably a positive play.

i think i would bet this river. the only hands that beat you are an eight (you would have heard about it on the turn), QQ or KK (you would have heard about it at some point), and Ax. is it really likely that someone called all this way with just Ax? i think you are better off trying to get a call from low pocket pairs, a 5, or even king high.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1 - i'm giving up on telling people not to raise with jacks preflop in this situation. apparently they never listen anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't do it out of spite /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks for the comments...

TheRake

[Sven]

Hey crock I don't think I've come across any of your posts when you talked about raiseing with JJ's. So when do you like to raise and just call with them? Thanks Mike

[chesspain]

Why shouldn't hero raise in MP with JJ after two limpers, especially at what he describes as a "tight-aggressive table?"

[CrackerZack]

Hand 1, unless he's C/R happy, you should bet this river, the card sucks, but you have position. You can fold to a raise also.

Hand 2, I think its a bit closer as its quite likely you'll be chopping but I'd bet it anyway. He may call with less. No reason to think you're beat...position again. Btw, I'd limp along with J9s after 2 limpers in almost any game I've ever played in.

[crockpot]

i think HFAP describes it as well as you can: you don't want to go out of your way to create a threeway or fourway pot with jacks (or tens). when two players in a tight game have limped, the likely result of your raise will be a threeway or fourway pot. even if a fifth player comes in, has your raise really gained you any EV? if anything, by making the pot bigger, you are encouraging overcards to stay in and outdraw you.

also, the typical player plays his jacks worse after raising preflop than if he had limped. for example, i see posts all the time about raising with jacks on a flop of, say, A84 when the hero had raised preflop. or they will call hoping to hit a jack because the pot was raised, even though they are still not getting the odds to do so. the vast majority of the time you make these sorts of plays postflop, it is costing you money.

i find it is much easier to play jacks passively preflop unless you think you can get it heads-up with a raise, and hope to flop a set or overpair.

[Sven]

I was reading in HPFAP were sklansky suggests raiseing preflop with QQ's and a King flops and someone bets into you and if you showed strenght before the flop your almost always beaten. So you don't think one should raise preflop or just don't raise JJ's preflop? Thanks Mike /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[crockpot]

the difference has to do with the huge gap in likelihood that an overcard will flop when you have queens as opposed to jacks. with jacks you are an underdog to have an overpair or better once the flop hits; with queens you are near a 2:1 favorite.

i don't see the point in raising with jacks in this sort of situation, but it will cost you much less than raising with tens, which is a play i still don't get.

[TheRake]

Crockpot,
There seems to be a some difference in opinion about this hand. In WLLHE Jones Considers AA-JJ (and sometimes TT) big pairs and recomends raising or re-raising from any position. I tend to agree with this thinking. 1 of the reasons for raising is to drive people out of the hand. When limping you encourage people holding Kx and Qx to limp along. This increases the possibility when an overcard does fall, on the flop or beyond, it is going to "fit" someones hand. Furthermore, many people will call your raise holding dominated pairs such as 55-TT. If there are many limpers from EP-MP I can see a case for limping along and playing passively because the limpers will not lay their hands down for 1 more bet, but from what I read on this forum it seems that most recomend raising this hand in most situations.

TheRake

[Nottom]

Hand 1: bet the river. I don't think this is even close.

Hand 2: J9s is a fine hand to sneak in with from LP after a couple limpers (isn't it a group 4 hand in HEFAP?). With your kicker problems the river bet isn't as clear cut as in the first hand. It would really depend on the fishiness of your opponent.