10-20 hand 67s in SB, good or bad?

[nykenny]

usual loose 10-20 holdem. most of everyone is fishy. 1.5 tough spot. one EP limper, good player raises in MP, his raise here means AA-99 or two big cards. (his weakness is auto bet on flop at not so threatening boards). i call with 67s in SB (took a peek at BB and he was calling). BB called. what do you think of this call?

flop comes 246 rainbow. i check, bb checks, EP checks, MP bets, i raise, all fold to MP. MP makes a subtle motion to grab more chips and then just calls. i am fairly certain that he knows i would catch this mannerism. so i decide he doesn't have an over pair. classic tell?

turn brings 9 makes flush possible. i bet without any hesitation. he calls.

River 8, completes the flush. i bet.

comments? result to follow.
Kenny

[Ed Miller]

good player raises in MP, his raise here means AA-99 or two big cards. (his weakness is auto bet on flop at not so threatening boards).

This is a weakness?

i call with 67s in SB (took a peek at BB and he was calling). BB called. what do you think of this call?

I think this is a poor call, especially in a 1/2 small blind structure, for two main reasons. It just costs you too much to see the flop... 1.5 bets is too much with this hand. Also, you are out of position to the field AND out of position with respect to the raiser. That is, you can expect people to check to the raiser and for him to bet. You are then next to act. So say you flop something like a gutshot (a very common flop for this hand). It is checked to the raiser who bets. Do you call? Well, you'd sure like to, but you have two players to act behind you who may have been planning to checkraise MP's autobet. So if you call with your gutshot, it may be checkraised and MP may 3-bet, leaving you hanging out to dry. If you decide to bet your gutshot instead, it may be raised and 3-bet again before it gets back to you, since you are out of position with respect to the field. Yuck.

If you are in the BB, there are many hands that you can call with if UTG raises that you must fold if the SB is the raiser instead, for the same reason. Incidentally, I've never seen this idea in print before. So I'm claiming it as "majorkong's rule for big blind defense in limit holdem". And if someone else has written about this before, then I wouldn't be the first to steal someone else's idea and call it my own. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Once you flop top pair, I guess you have to checkraise and pray everyone except the raiser folds. Obviously you should bet the turn.

On the river, why do you think your strong-playing opponent called on the turn? He probably either picked up the flush draw or is stringing you along with a big pair. Either way, your situation does not look rosey. In fact, I don't see any strong reason to bet the river... do you really expect him to call you down with AK unimproved on this board?

[Clarkmeister]

I'm not exactly Mr. Tighty and I'd fold this preflop without a second thought.

The rest of the hand you played fine.

[daryn]

fold 67s in the sb to a raise, no doubt about it.

[skp]

Your points are excellent but unfortunately, I can't say that you are the first to talk about the importance of "position" vis a vis the PFR who, for obvious reasons, is the most probable bettor on the flop. Being to the right of a PFR in a multiway pot is way better than being to his left when you hold a small pocket pair for example.

In fact, in that particular spot, your position in relation to the button is nowhere near as important as your position in relation to the PFR, the probable bettor on the turn if it's not going to be you and so on.

I know that I have mentioned this concept several times on this board over the years and teh concept is also referred to and applied in my hand reading essay. Even so, I am pretty sure that I too can't say that I was the first to write about it.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with having people understand the concept and refer to it as "The Majorkong Maxim"...that description sure beats the "The skp slogan"..heh

[sam h]

i think abdul wrote an essay about position in respect to the raiser, though i'm not sure he analyzed blind play per se. so perhaps you can still take credit for the maxim.

position with respect to the raiser is a pretty widely noted aspect of nl/pl play as well. pretty sure i remember the reuben/ciaffone book harping on it fairly often.

[vkotlyar]

did u muck when chris raised u with the nut flush? I think that betting the river is a great idea if you can fold to a raise in the sense taht he will call you w AK. He knows that u can c/r the flop w AQ, and he would hate to be outplayed by you. I think that he picked up a draw on the turn, or he can have 55. He will call you down with that /images/graemlins/smile.gif
vitaly