Hellmuth gets no respect in club pot limit game

[MRBAA]

Phil Hellmuth has visited a NYC Card room several times following tourney's at FW. On his most recent visit, several players and dealers report, he lost a hand to a regular. This player is well known for his over the top insults and coffeehousing after he wins a hand. As Phil got up to leave the table, the player screamed after him "Come back and I'll open you up like an clam." I'm sure Hellmuth could care --but I thought it was very funny. Kind of like a high school kid hitting a jumper in a pick up game with Kobe and talking trash....

[Mike Gallo]

I'm sure Hellmuth could care --but I thought it was very funny. Kind of like a high school kid hitting a jumper in a pick up game with Kobe and talking trash....


What if LeBron James talked trash to Kobe last year while LeBron still attended high school?

Bad analogy. Just because Helmuth plays in big buy in tournamants it doesnt mean players from the underground clubs have less skill than him. They probably on average do have more skills.

[MRBAA]

Can't agree. Hellmuth may be a mediocre limit player, but his tournament record is siimply too good to dismiss. You're right about Lebron, though. He can talk all the trash he wants.

[daryn]

yeah, pretty funny stuff, by the way where is that dude's bracelet? oh yeah , he will never get one

[Mike Gallo]

Can't agree. Hellmuth may be a mediocre limit player, but his tournament record is siimply too good to dismiss.

You didnt say anything about a tournament. You mentioned a pot limit game. I dont think you can compare the two.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, pretty funny stuff, by the way where is that dude's bracelet? oh yeah , he will never get one

[/ QUOTE ]

Daryn you seem to be hung up on numbers of bracelets. Well I can own a dozen just by going to the pawn shop across from Binions. What does that tell you about the value of a WSOP bracelet? Now money, that has value and it will buy or win all the bracelets you want.

[daryn]

the key about having the bracelet is earning it by winning. i can go out and buy a trophy and even engrave it to say something like "world spelling bee champion", but i'm not the champ.. some indian home schooled kid with a speech impediment is.

[CrackerZack]

What club was this? PS?

[CrackerZack]

are you really going to try to argue with wakeupcall? You'd be better off trying to argue Stu Ungar with Ryan_21.

[daryn]

while we're talking about these clubs, what is the deal with them? how does one find out about them and how do you play in them? are they underground or something? someone who knows about these drop some info please, or PM me i guess. no names needed, just how do they operate

[daryn]

i have argued with wake before, it's cake.

[CrackerZack]

[Gamblor]

Can anyone PM me with any information on clubs in Toronto?

I've been driving to Rama, and frankly, driving for 2 hours to play means I feel I have to stay at the table for 6. Which inevitably leads to fatigue, tilt, etc.

[Rushmore]

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
You didnt say anything about a tournament. You mentioned a pot limit game. I dont think you can compare the two.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the gist. I played in live games against a lot of bracelet owners and other tournament champs and would submit, as diplomatically as possible, that accross those players there was no positive correlation between tournament success and live game success. That's not to say there aren't a handul of successful tournament players who do excell in live games. On the whole though -- hmmm...

To put it another way, my experience in the bigger hold'em games in L.A. would suggest this: If for some reason you wanted to develop a reputation as an excellent live game player at higher limits, and you asked the best players in those games whether coming into the games known as a great tournament champion would help in that regard, they'd tell you it would be an almost suicidal move.

None of this is to denegrate the tournament skills of top tournament players. For many, though, they just don't transfer well to live games, and many find themselves seriously outclassed in that environment.

[WillMagic]

Well, since this is the topic, if anyone knows of any, please pm me.

Will

[Easy E]

definition, please?

[shaniac]

So the most widely known degenerate schmuck in the whole New York poker community goes through his usual classless post-hand schtick and this is notable, why?

Considering that Phil won more than a quarter of a million dollars that week and that the person making the comments will undoubtedly find himself stone-broke sooner or later (no one really disputes that), it really reflects less on Phil than it does the unnamed individual.

FWIW, I heard from a friend in the game that Phil behaved like a perfect gentleman on the night in question and I venture to judge that even the ill-tempered Phil H. has more class and decorum on a bad day than our friend (the degenerate loudmouth) does on his best.

Shane

[Vehn]

Don't turn into this guy. (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.12/mafia.html)

[shaniac]

Coffeehousing usually refers to coy discussion of a hand in progress. It's similar to trash-talking with the aim of getting your opponent to reveal information about his hand. The incident in question is more like pure trash-talking than coffeehousing though because it took place after the hand.

Shane

[MRBAA]

I thought it was funny precisely because the guy who said it is such an idiot yet it resonated with the perception that Hellmuth may be nearly as fishy in side games as he is sharklike in tournament play. From everything you read, Doyle Brunson was (still is?) good in both no limit/tourney settings and big limit side games

[shaniac]

I think it's fairly well known that Phil H. isn't much of a live game player so I assume you are not basing your assessment on one losing PL session.

In any case, he is far more of a player in any venue than the fellow who who doing the trash talking, so your anecdote hardly reflects on Phil H. at all.

Shane

[Ed Miller]

I went to school with him. I remember because he used to write for our school newspaper, and his name is absurd.

[Nottom]

It's funny, I had never heard this term until I was accused of doing it over at TGC (Its against the rules there) last week. Now I've seen it come up at least 3 times on the boards.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
So the most widely known degenerate schmuck in the whole New York poker community goes through his usual classless post-hand schtick and this is notable, why?

Considering that Phil won more than a quarter of a million dollars that week and that the person making the comments will undoubtedly find himself stone-broke sooner or later (no one really disputes that), it really reflects less on Phil than it does the unnamed individual.

FWIW, I heard from a friend in the game that Phil behaved like a perfect gentleman on the night in question and I venture to judge that even the ill-tempered Phil H. has more class and decorum on a bad day than our friend (the degenerate loudmouth) does on his best.

Shane

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all in the flop, buddy! I crowbar you! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mmanne]

If anyone knows of any clubs in Boston, please PM me. I've found a home game or two, but no clubs.

[John Feeney]

Yes, Brunson, Lederer, Harrington and a few others have certainly done very well in both settings.

[CrackerZack]

Its in TGC rules as something you can't do.

[sam h]

you're missing the point. those bracelets will predict success in pot limit cash games about as well as that spelling bee championship will predict success in highly competitive scrabble.

it doesn't take away from phil's achievements to say that they don't translate elsewhere very well. unless, that is, you have some insatiable need to affirm a hierarchical star system. then it does take away from the achievements, because the way you understand those achievements attaches to them a greater significance than they deserve.

[daryn]

i guess so



but to the untrained eye you seem to be just another jealous loser

[Boris]

Spelling bee champions aren't good at competitive scrabble? I never woulda guessed.

[Tyler Durden]

Feel free to send me a PM and I can give you info about some great home games in the DC area.

[johnnyhearts]

"Coffeehousing" originally referred to the practice of discussing a chess game in progress within earshot of the participants. It was considered to be in bad taste due to the obvious fact that they might be distracted or perhaps get on idea for a good move. In poker, I think if this term is used, it must refer to players not involved in the hand discussing what they think players have, might do, etc. and is in bad taste for the same reason. Trash talking if you're involved in play is not "coffeehousing" in chess nor poker.

Fiddle Hearts/ Team Beers

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
but to the untrained eye you seem to be just another jealous loser

[/ QUOTE ]

to the trained eye, it seems that sam has a better grasp of this stuff than you do.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Spelling bee champions aren't good at competitive scrabble? I never woulda guessed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very little correlation here. All kinds of interesting stuff on this in Word Freak, a book about the world of competitive Scrabble.

[daryn]

this may be true. i just hate it when some loser on the internet is ragging on phil hellmuth.. the guy is a huge tourney winner! #1 in tourney money , how can you argue with it? i don't.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
but to the untrained eye you seem to be just another jealous loser

[/ QUOTE ]

i get that says it all. since you don't really know much about the topic, you'll call me a loser. and since you won't deal with the argument itself, you'll just write it off as jealousy. kind of transparent, no?

[sam h]

well, i imagine spelling bee champions are significantly better on average than most people at scrabble. but that doesn't mean they have the tool kit to compete successfully at the higher levels of competition. in the same way, no limit tournament stars are probably better on average than most poker players at pot limit cash games. but that doesnt mean most of them won't get eaten alive by the better cash game players in the long run.

[Duke]

Yeah the problem is the different dictionaries. Especially if the competition is domestic, and they're using the OSPD3. A spelling bee champ may play ADE, and have it challenged off the board, even though it's a word in any standard dictionary. Plus knowing the hooks and anagrams of bingoes is useful.

OK I'll stop ranting. Off to play live.

~D

[baggins]

[ QUOTE ]
those bracelets will predict success in pot limit cash games about as well as that spelling bee championship will predict success in highly competitive scrabble.


[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps not. but a poor speller sure as hell ain't gonna be able to beat a good one at Scrabble. some skills do translate, even if it is not a clean, one-to-one translation of skills.

[snakehead]

[ QUOTE ]
my experience in the bigger hold'em games in L.A.

[/ QUOTE ]

just out of curiosity, when was the last time you played in one of those games?

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I went to school with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

You went to school with Alfonse? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

(By the way, only people who play at the aforementioned club will get this.)

[CrackerZack]

if MK went to school with Alfonse, Alfonse taught him, and maybe sold him a restaurant.

[John Feeney]

Maybe two or three years ago, not far from when I saw you there. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I am "semi-to-mostly-retired" from poker now. You know, as a registered member here, you really ought to keep up on these things. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tpir90036]

my eyes must need some training too.... i didn't see any envious/loser-ous over/undertones. i thought you guys had a decent argument going for a few posts there...

how bad.

[superleeds]

[J_V]

I don't think George Thampy ever won the big one. He should have he as my favorite too.

[MRBAA]

My understanding of coffeehousing in poker is one player talking to another while they are in a hand together, or just after. For example, sometimes a player might say "come on, call me it's only one bet" as his opponent ponders a call. It's up to you to decide if he really wants a call or is trying to get you to fold. Another common form is commenting on possible holdings -- "I've got aces" or "what do you have, a flush draw -- that's no good". In fact, what happened in this case is really more trash talking than coffeehousing, now that I think about it.

[mike l.]

i want to go on record as saying i now like his card player articles. it was one i read two issues ago that convinced me he is doing worthwhile work for that rag. he just has this really consistent vibe going where he just gets these beats in these big tournaments and then is all anguished and then all oh but im so blessed. i dont know, i find it to be nice reading material while settling down for a nap or something. so phil h. youve got my thumbs up, no more hating on you. i now like your pale whining complaining tall freakishness, and ill root for you on the wpt.