I need HELP throwing away my overcards

[JeffO]

I learned to play Hold em using Turbo Texas Hold em and they recomend calling bets when you have "major" overcards (AK AQ AJ KQ) with rags on the board. If you open raised say with AKo or AQo and the flop comes up rags they recomend betting out. This is how I used to play until I read HPFAP and Winning low limit hold em.

Now I routinly check and then fold these hands only to see my card fall on the turn or river, or fold my AKo when I'm bet into by someone with KQo with rags on the board.

Under what curcumstances can I bet or call a pot with major overcards with rags on the board? The people from Turbo Texas Hold em can't be completely wrong, I'm sure they've done computer simulations to justify their recommendations. HELP

[Gildersneeze]

[ QUOTE ]
Under what curcumstances can I bet or call a pot with major overcards with rags on the board? The people from Turbo Texas Hold em can't be completely wrong, I'm sure they've done computer simulations to justify their recommendations. HELP

[/ QUOTE ]I'd do it if it's a raggedy board, I'm in late position or on the button, and it checks all around to me.

Either a lot of the people left are going to fold, or I'm going to get check-raised. If I'm check-raised by someone I know who check-raises when he has a hand, I'm out. If I'm check-raised by someone who I know will try to bluff because he saw Gus Hansen do it on the WPT (sorry, Zack), I'll call him and take another card.

But then again, I'm not the best player here by any means, so listen to the "big daddies" if they reply. They'll probably tell me my plan is crap /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Homer]

Under what curcumstances can I bet or call a pot with major overcards with rags on the board?

- Bet when you have a chance to take the pot down immediately (dependent on number of opponents, looseness of opponents, raggedness of the board, etc)

- Bet when you are fairly confident that you have the best hand (unless check-raising a reliable LP bettor will make it easier to clear the field)

- Bet when you aren't confident in either of the above, but have odds to see the turn on a check-call, and don't expect to be raised when you bet

- Check-call when you have odds to see the turn and expect someone to raise behind you if you bet

- Check-fold when you don't have odds to see the turn (and the first two comments don't apply)

Post a bunch of overcard hands, and you'll get better answers.

-- Homer

[Homer]

Also, I'm wondering if this applies to you:

A couple limpers, you raise in LP with AKo, limpers call. Flop comes 7h 4h 2d. Checked to you, you bet and one limper calls. Turn comes 6s. Checked to you and you check it through.

You should routinely fire again on the turn in this situation, as many opponents (especially at this level) will take one off with OC's. I'll often bet here even if both limpers call the flop bet. Sometimes I'll even value bet the river (though this happens much less frequently).

-- Homer

[BigEndian]

If I'm check-raised by someone who I know will try to bluff because he saw Gus Hansen do it on the WPT

I do this fairly frequently against weak-tight players. You're giving Mr. Hansen too much credit, he didn't invent this move.

- Groove

[LetsRock]

This is a situation where having raised pre-flopped with these hands makes it very easy. (If your table image is solid). If you bet out or raise this flop, it looks like you're pre-flop action represents a big pair. If someone fires back, you need to decide if you're going commit to your "representation" (re-raise) or back-off (call or fold).

Who did the firing? A rock or an idiot? A rock might be testing you (he has overcards too, or maybe a middle pair); an idiot might be bullying you, (but is more likely to have something that looks good with this board); a calling station just made a set.

It's so important to realize what YOUR table image is.

Have you been showing down winners consistently? People will believe you a lot more.

Have you been caught trying to buy recently? You'll get no respect and absolutely need to have what you represent for a while.

I tend to have a real tight image, so if I raised pre-flop, I come out firing wether or not I actually hit and adjust my strategy from there. You'd be surprised how many calling stations will fold on the river against a tight, solid image who "never" gets caught without the goods!

[Louie Landale]

Lets get something straight. Your two big cards are worth raising before the flop but really are not that BIG a favorite against the field. You missed the flop representing 3/5ths of your chances to improve.

If there are a lot of callers [] someone has a pair [] someone can easily have hit their kicker and one or both of your overcards do NOT give you the winner [] your big pair, if you make it, is in jeapardy; that is you may have "6 outs" but you are not drawing to that great a hand: you'd be better off with a 4-card gut-draw: at least its good if you make it. Over cards have much more value in smaller pots.

If there are a few callers you need to consider the types of hands they may play. Tight callers may have a middle pair, but did NOT flop a small pair.

Making loose calls or bets on the flop should be reserved for late position.

Usually check-and-fold when you miss. I should say: make sure the opponents know that you usually check-and-fold when you miss, "usually" being the key word. They may never notice that you bet against 2 tight opponents but check against 4 loose opponents.

- Louie

[Jezebel]

Jeffo,
I like to try and train the field to give me a free card when I want through lotsa checkraising, espcially online.

Lets say your EP raising standards are AA-TT AK, AQ and maybe a few others. When you raise with these your opponents will generally put you on a big Ace until you tell them otherwise. So when rags flop many opponents will bet out or raise your bet to see where you are at in the hand. Try mixing in some checkraises with your big pairs when rags flop, espcially against a large field. If the guy to your immediate left bets out, then your checkraise will trap a few for additional bets. If the bet comes from LP then you can cut the odds down on the field from drawing out. After you do this a couple of times when you check the flop after raising preflop with say AK, many times you will get a free card. When this happens, fire a bet out on the turn no matter what comes. This will many times pick up the pot since they feel like you might have been trying to trap them and it didn't work, so now your getting your bet in to avoid it being checked around again. The other thing is your opponents drawing hands will not have nearly the odds to call on the turn since no money went in on the flop and bet has now doubled.

I'm not advocating you checkraise every time, but enough to get their attention. I will favor betting out against a small field (2 or 3 max) and checkraising agaisnt a larger field (4 or more). Once you have them trained, you can throw in a checkraise with overcards on the flop occasionally.

These same principles can be adapted for use on the turn as well. In a unraised pot with a good but vulnerable hand, or a drawing hand I usually bet out on the flop and check the turn. If it's a made hand, I'll checkraise the turn if it's bet. If I'm drawing then maybe I'll get a free card since my opponent might fear being checkraised. The downside to checkraising is the free card you give will occasionally cost you the pot, but I think it is worth it.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm wondering if this applies to you:

A couple limpers, you raise in LP with AKo, limpers call. Flop comes 7h 4h 2d. Checked to you, you bet and one limper calls. Turn comes 6s. Checked to you and you check it through.

You should routinely fire again on the turn in this situation, as many opponents (especially at this level) will take one off with OC's. I'll often bet here even if both limpers call the flop bet. Sometimes I'll even value bet the river (though this happens much less frequently).

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]

It amazing how often this works. People just love to call flop bets and then fold on turn.

The one time I don't try it is against calling station type players. I will usually check-behind on the turn as I know they will call all the way to the river with any pair.