Learning O8B- Today's 5 hands

[lunchmeat]

I recently (yesterday) started playing O8B. I’ve decided to post five of the more challenging hands every day to chart my progress and to get feedback on my play. Each day I’ll be concentrating in particular on one specific skill, and at least some of the hands I post will reflect the particular skill I’m working on. Today I concentrated on value raising strong hands before the flop (as suggested by Steve Badger on his website). I play .50/$1 on Intertops (a Party skin)… so my opposition is generally clueless. Today I played about 75 hands and finished –1.25 big bets. Any comments on my play and O8B in general would be appreciated... As of now I'm a little reticent about clogging up the "other poker" forum with my daily posts, so I'll just post in the microlimit forum unless people have better suggestions.

Hand 1) Two callers to me, I raise Ac, Ks, 4s, 2h, player to my left raises “in turn.” The two callers call two more bets each, I call.
Flop: Qd, 9d, 8s
I check and fold

Hand 2) Four callers to me, I raise from the big blind with Ah, As, Qc, 3c. Everyone calls.
Flop: 6c, 5d, 2s
Sb calls, I call (I thought a lot about raising to knock out potential high hands), 2 more call
Turn: 5s (6c, 5d, 2s)
Checked to me, I bet, player to my left raises “in turn,” sb calls two cold, I call
River: Qs (6c, 5d, 5s, 2s)
I check/call & get quartered by the turn raiser for the low, sb takes high with a 2-6 straight (T, 8, 4, 3)

Hand 3) 4 callers to me, I check from the big blind with Ad, Jd, Td, Ts
Flop: Tc, 6s, 5h
Checked to button who bets, sb calls, I check/raise, and 3 call.
Turn: 8h, (Tc, 6s, 5h)
Checked to me, I bet, sb calls
River: Th (Tc, 6s, 5h, 8h)
sb checks, I bet, he calls. I win high, he wins low with 8, 4, 3, 2

Hand 4) 2 callers to me, I call half a bet from the sb with (Ad, Tc, Ts, 3h), bb checks
Flop: Ac, Jc, 2h
I check, BB bets, 2 call, I fold


Hand 5) I call in EP with Ah, Th, Td, 2h. (I think a raise here might scare away the stupid low draws from calling) Four others see the flop.
Flop: 6d, 5h, 3h
BB bets, I call, 2 others call
Turn: 9c (6d, 5h, 3h)
BB bets, I call, 2 others call
River: Jh (9c, 6d, 5h, 3h)
Checked to me, I bet, 2 call. I scoop with nut low & nut flush. Hand history showed both opponents had 2-6 straights for both halves. (Was I too passive on this hand?)

[rkiray]

You might want to crosspost these to the other poker forum. Buzz answers every O8 post over there, and he's really, really good. Neither this forum nor that one is really busy yet (actually this forum is much busier than most forums, I think it's about 4th busiest, other poker is more or less dead). I wouldn't worry about overloading other poker. They avg. less than one new post a day. This forum still keeps new posts on the first page for over 24 hours (usually a couple of days at least) which is my criteria for an overloaded forum. Warning, I'm not a very good O8 player, but I'm trying to get better, so posting my reply is probably good for me.

Hand 1 : ok. I generally don't raise nearly as much in O8 as HE. It seems like mostly a game of picking good starting hands and reading boards (actually Mason has written this in one of the Poker Essay books, Vol. 1 I believe). So this hand is definitely worth playing, but is a boderline raise. If the table is tight (by O8 standards) it's probably good. If it's a really loose table I'd probably call.

Hand 2 : No way I raise this one. Maybe if one of the aces was suited. Easy call though. I might raise the flop since you have nut low, but when I do this I'm probably wrong. One thing is for sure. You don't want to get in raising wars in O8 with only nut low. Turn and river appear routine.

Hand 3 : fine

Hand 4 : fine

Hand 5 : I really don't think this is a hand I'd even consider raising with.

[lunchmeat]

Thanks for the feedback rkiray. If you're interested, I've copied below some info from the Dec. 1999 Other Poker archive. The first part is a question about when to raise pre-flop in O8B, and the second part is Ray Zee's response about when to raise in tight games and when to raise in loose games. (This in no way implies that I know which hands are good enough to value raise with p-f, but I found it pretty interesting and thought you might too.)



On a RGP thread a while ago Badger claimed that a lot of the play and value in O8 is before the flop through raising and reraising when you have a good starting hand. Given the usual multiway nature of O8, premium starting hands are much better than other hands and should be raised to get more money in the pot. This is where a good deal of your long term profit comes from.

But then I read in RZ's book that preflop raising in O8 is mainly done to knock players out behind you and gain position. Even good starting hands are not that far ahead of mediocre hands and raising just for value is not that important a strategy.

So now I am confused. Who is correct? Or are both correct somehow?




Re: Omatha 8 advice - RZ and Badger
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 December 1999, at 12:42 a.m.

both sides have merit. in the games i talk about where there are less players and you can knock out people, raises for that purpose have more value. anytime you can make the hand play so that you can win without a showdown you have accomplished much. premium hands do well with early raising. getting position in a hand is more valuable than getting more money in when a slight favorite. when you are a bigger favorite that starts to change. and in pots that are going to be multiway and called all the way down you might as well play fast with the goods... In games where everybody takes the flop and you arent going to get them out on the flop or later just because you raise, then pushing your good hands against the players is of utmost importance. you need to capitalize on your edge.

[rkiray]

Interesting post. In most of the online O8 games I play there is almost always a showdown. Also a single raise doesn't get much respect. That's why I don't raise much. I'm not quite sure how to apply this post to those games.

[DPCondit]

Like the Zee post you quoted, both sides have merit. Badger is a Los Angeles player, like myself, and Los Angeles is known for wild and crazy loose games. Both Zee and Badger are excellent players at the games they play (although I've never seen Ray Zee play, he is quite respected by many good players, and that is good enough for me), but they are both used to different types of games. Learn from both of them. If you are playing micro-limits (obviously you are), then I imagine you are not going to be able to knock people out very often, or get heads-up, so you should be able to make money value raising your good hands pre-flop, as Steve Badger suggests. Like the Zee post you quoted, when you are against a lot of very inferior hands, your edge becomes much greater, that is where you want to get a lot of money in preflop.

You may want to ignore some of what I wrote in response to Buzz in the identical thread you started in other poker games forum, as your probability of being quartered goes up quite a bit in low limit loose games (not necessarily ignore, but adapt it to your particular game conditions).

Good luck,
Don

[Bob T.]

1 - With Back door straight, backdoor flush, and backdoor low possibilities, I would probably call in this largish pot if I could take one off for 1 bet on the flop.

2 - I would call preflop, because I can't shorten the field with my hand, and you don't really have a good flush draw, or backup, incase your low counterfeits. On the flop, I would raise, having the nut low, and onepair for high, in order to try an thin the field so my high hand might win.

3 - about the expected result.

4 - probably prudent.

5 - I think that a bet or raise might be in order here, before the river. You really wouldn't mind if someone with a 4 folded, if a deuce comes off and counterfeits your low.