$10-20 - When do I give up?

[LarsVegas]

Hi there, anyone remember me? It's been ages since I last posted, before they got this log-on thing here. I tried to get a username once, but struggled a bit and didn't really bother to make a real effort. So I have been lurking in the shadows from time to time, *almost* getting to the point where I setup a username, to answer some of Dynasty's most arrogant posts. ;-)

Anyway, this one cracked me. I *HAD* to post.

$10-20 online 6-man table, at a new site for me (however, I think some may have heard of it...Party Poker?).

I am dealt AKo in SB. UTG limps, UTG+1 raises, button cold-calls and I choose to three-bet to perhaps force out big blind and UTG and other than that play what is a very strong hand in a 6-man game for three bets before the flop. Anyway, BB folds, rest call.

Flop comes Q-Q-J rainbow, and although I perhaps should just check this flop straight away, I have pretty much bet it before I see the cards. ;-) All call.

Turn is the magic miracle Ten, but given the preflop action, I am not entirely satisfied with this board. I bet, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, button threebets. What's my play? Ok, I certainly have a few losing cards if ahead, but I feel there is still a very real chance of being ahead. Anyone fold here? I call the three-bet. UTG caps, button calls. [censored], ok, I'll give it two more bets unless the river makes it even more ugly. Call.

River: 3x. I check, UTG bets, the button raises. 23.5 big bets in the pot, two to me and I am not closing the action.

The players are unknown to me, but I hadn't really spotted anything out of the ordinary in my few rounds so far, seemed like your ordinary loose-aggressive midlimit shorthanded online game.

How obvious is this fold? Or is it some kind of "rule" I should be having here, that when I call the turn threebet cold, I should be getting to the bottom of this, no matter what?

lars

[PokerPrince]

It's short handed PartyPoker, you couldn't get me out of that hand with a shotgun.

PokerPrince

[nykenny]

call but expect to lose some of the time (more often than not i guess). /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kenny

[turnipmonster]

boy, this is sort of a tough situation. you are getting 13-1 on a call, but you are probably beat 6 ways to sunday. Against unknown players, I would call, but this is the type of hand that makes me glad I play B&M, as I would have a much better read of the situation than in online.

argument for folding:
- with your 3 bet preflop, and subsequent hanging on, the button is either trying to force you out, or more likely is not scared of AK.

arguments for calling
- this is a monster of a pot, and folding even a split is a big mistake.

this is one of those hands where it's really ugly because you're out of position, but what're you gonna do? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I vote for the crying call.

--turnipmonster

[MHoydilla]

If you are going to call the turn hoping for a rag on the river how could you even consider folding here?? If you were going to fold why not on the turn?? BTW live I would fold, online easy call.

[LarsVegas]

Ok, one thing here which I feel is pretty important is that I don't close the action, and that the following scenario is very real:

I cold-call, UTG now three-bets, but this time the button just calls. Now I am getting 30-to-1, but even fantasizing about a split-pot is now pretty optimistic. It's almost as if it's another close decision, but of course, at 30-to-1 I guess you have to call. But being trapped for three bets on the river, and quite possibly SEVEN big bets while drawing dead feels a bit enourmous in my opinion.

Maybe I should have folded the turn. Amongst other reasons to avoid river decisions like this. Fold to the turn three-bet and I lose 3 big bets on this hand and that's it. Next hand please?

Somehow, I felt this was an extremely interesting hand, to the point where I had to register here and make my first post here for like one and a half year.

In this hand, you can choose several paths, and we are not talking about the usual pre-flop, flop or flop decisions where making the wrong decision is usually amounts to a mistake worth 0.5 big bets or (usually a lot) less.

In this hand, several full bets can separate the different choices you can make, in expected value, the three real alternatives being folding for the turn three-bet, folding for the river raise or paying off all bets.

What fascinates me, is that it still feels quite close to me against unknown (random) online opponents. Maybe the lesson is: "Try avoid playing big pots out of position against unknown opponents. Do NOT three-bet AKo in small blind after a limp, raise and cold-call."

Results to follow.

[magithighs]

Couple of different ways to play this. I like your play until the turn. Being out of position with two callers on the scary flop, I would suspect a slow playing fh, or trips as you likely did. But, checking the turn allows YOU to make it three bets -- a cap then makes it an easy fold -- especially when they haven't seen you.

Few more different plays.

1) Check-raise the flop to make the trips declare themselves. Even with small bets, someone facing calling two cold with trips will cap. Then on the turn you are more certain of where u stand.

2) Check-call the turn/river. I know this is a weak play, but getting others to bet your hand is half the battle on a six-handed game. Not a bad play, IMO. Then you have a weak image which can be easily exploited when they don't know you.

3) Call two bets pre-flop and check fold the flop. Being out of position sucks in short games.

[daryn]

wait, this was the party 10-20 6 max right?

congratulations, you won the pot



edit: actually, my bad.. the river was a 3? you lost to Q3o

[WyattErb]

The same thing actually happend to me a short while ago...same flop, me with AKo, the other guy had QJo...i call again...anyway!

[moronloose1]

Didn't you have any all-ins left ?? That's this kind of situation what you get them for ! /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

"I have pretty much bet it [the flop] before I see the cards. ;-)"

Lol! Reminds me of when online poker first started. I was playing $10-20 at Paradise. (This was before they had $20-40.) All the guys at the casino were asking me all sorts of questions about playing online. It was all so new, and therefore considered dangerous.

What about collusion? They would ask. And how can you read your opponents?

And I thought, such pesky concerns. I just wanted to be able to bet dark.



Tommy

[LarsVegas]

I actually folded the river. Probably poor, but I am not sure. The very likely possibility of losing 7.5 big bets post-flop drawing dead the whole way wasn't particularly attractive, but perhaps I do need to make these "Crying Cold Calls".

UTG called and I immediatly regretted my decision. Button showed Q4s for bare trips, UTG then shows 98s for the low end straight.

I really don't think this hand has any easy solutions, but I guess one of the advices here, to call before the flop and check-fold once it comes like this, probably is the closest I get to a reasonable, easy way to play this hand.

Lars

[Ulysses]

Welcome to Party 6-max. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I put your opponents on AQ and a lower straight based on the fact that you thought it was interesting enough to post. This is a pretty typical hand for those of us who play in these often ridiculously overaggressive games.

My main comment re: this hand is simply that if you think (correctly) that there's enough of a chance you're good on the turn to call the 3-bet, you should be committed to call the river unless the board pairs.

In these games, it's an automatic 3-bet pre-flop for me. Against many lineups, I'll cap the turn here and lead the river (and call a raise). If it then gets raised and 3-bet on the river, then it's time to think about things...

[The Gift Of Gab]

I was at the table but not involved in the hand. When you mentioned you had folded the winner I thought, "Hah! That guy is so full of it...who could possibly trust these nutcases enough to fold a hand better than the trash they showed down?"

When playing on Party, heed the X-Files: trust no one...

[joedot]

Fold a lot early, call a lot late. You know that the river will cost you more bets, so you made your decision on the turn. Your hand wasn't getting any better at that point, so either you thought it was best or did not. The river didn't change anything. Once you committed on the turn, you really should call the river. Especially with a straight or better.