How many mistakes? PokerNoob strikes again

[PokerNoob]

TGC 1/2 table, 10 handed. Typical for there, meaning a mixture of players.

I'm dealt K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif in CO-1. Folded to me, I limp. CO limps, Button raises (no notes), SB reraises (very loose aggressive raiser), BB folds, I call, CO folds, Button calls. 11 SB to the flop of:

7/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets. I don't believe SB has an Ace. My notes on his pf raises show a lot of utter garbage and the comment "bluffer". I call, its button I'm worried about, but he merely calls. 7 BB to turn of:

9/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets again, I call, getting good odds on the flush. Button calls. 10 BB to the river of

4/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets, I raise, they both call.

SB had QQ. Button had AQo.

[rkiray]

I think you made two clear mistakes preflop. KTs I'd raise in lmp especially since no one is in. But since you didn't raise and two other people did I'd fold instead of calling two more.

Flop is confusing. I definitely don't like my hand, but given the bluffer is betting and the pot is large, calling can't be too bad. I'm not sure what I would do. It would depend alot on how I had been running and how I thought my opponents thought about me.

Rest of hand looks routine to me.

[JTG51]

Not raising preflop is a mistake. It's very rarely correct to open limp from late position.

The flop call is very bad. Even if you're convinced SB could have garbage, you've got the button to deal with. If you really feel like you have to continue (and I don't knnw why you would) raise and try to get heads up.

[Joe Tall]

Nooby,

Raise KTs when everyone folds to you, open-limping is a mistake here.

Well if you don't think the SB has an Ace, you still have the preflop raiser behind you to deal with and nothing at all in your hand. Even if SB has 88 and the button has QQ you are way behind, you have an easy flop fold.

Peace,
JT

[PokerNoob]

Preflop: Why is everyone saying raise? This is the part I'm unsure of (actually two things). I know you want to steal blinds with a raise in LMP, but don't you want to encourage CO and Button to limp in with trash, and flop a king or a nice pat flush or draw? Where is balance between encouraging people to come in with a hand that plays multiway and stealing blinds? The other issue is calling the raises. 2 to me with 8 in and a limper behind. I don't want SB to think he can push me off preflop. I also have a nice chance at a pot with 2nd nut heart flush should hearts flop, and I'll expect action on later streets. When is it right to throw away an initial investment in a pot?

Flop: I am thinking my king outs are good against SB. Can't tell about button, but if I'm behind, I'm way behind to him and I'll get out if he shows aggression, i.e. fold to a raise behind. It costs one small bet in a 12 sb pot. As it turns out he didn't show aggression, and I can cheaply see if the next card is a king (or a heart).

I know it looks from these two hands that I chase runner runner effective one outers, or peel one off to see what the next card is, but its really just these two hands. The crux of the matter is for me to realize that my king outs may be absolutely no good, but without a show of aggression by a "real" preflop raiser.... Obviously a big problem for me, same as the first JoeTall hand, where I was obviously dominated and had no outs at all really, except the runner runner straight and flush, but conjured extra outs up in my mind.

Once the turn heart hits, the nut flush odds are in my favor to continue. Any non heart, non king and I fold to SB's bet. Lets suppose a king falls instead. I now, as it would have turned out, have a second best hand, and a two outer. I think I still fold to a raise or reraise at this point because I'm staring at that poor kicker. Just bet, call, call and I'm in to the showdown and get beat as the slowplayed ace maximizes his pot (I think, although SB might have called raises). But in this case the slowplay comes home to roost, and I suck out on the aces because I was never challenged to get out of the hand after a large pot had been built.

[lil']

Open limping from late position is a classic weak player move. I make notes about players who do this all the time.

On the flop I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish by calling. Do you think it's a good idea to call with undercards in a raised pot?

[lil']

but don't you want to encourage CO and Button to limp in with trash
You act like K-10s is a world beater. It's not. It's average stuff.

and flop a king or a nice pat flush or draw?
Umm...OK. That happens once in a while. Most of the time the flop misses you. If you have one opponent you have a much better chance to win the pot unimproved with a bet on the flop.

I don't want SB to think he can push me off preflop.
They'll be plenty of time to send this message to him later when you have a real hand.

I am thinking my king outs are good against SB. Can't tell about button, but if I'm behind, I'm way behind to him and I'll get out if he shows aggression, i.e. fold to a raise behind. It costs one small bet in a 12 sb pot
What difference does it make how much is in the pot when you are likely drawing to runner runner hearts? The pot was raised and re-raised behind you. Don't you think there is a good chance you are losing here? Even if by some chance neither one has an ace, they probably still have a better hand than you.

It seems like you are so concerned with not getting pushed around that you are making poor decisions. You totally discounted the button the entire hand.

[PokerNoob]

I know KTs is on the bottom of the list of starters. Except for flush possibilities its pretty weak. And this is where I have a big hole in my knowledge and I don't know where to fill it. How many opponents do I want to have against it in this position? Is the answer "one or a lot" but not three or four? And how does KTs fit into the loose microlimit holdem strategy of "play cards that can flop monsters against many opponenets and take big pots". Is that even a viable strategy?

I did try some pot steals. Some were successful, some were not. Headsup is something that I need LOTS of work on.

You are very right, I did discount the button the entire hand because I was intent on beating the SB, but finishing second in a poker hand is the same as finishing last. I knew I was behind to any pocket pair and near impossible to catch up with an ace. But here's the thing, I thought a king might make me a winner if there were no ace, but I'll never know unless I throw another SB in. When the ace didn't raise behind me, I couldn't put him on an ace and fold to his raise.

If my thought process of "a king might make me a winner maybe half the time and part of the half the time it won't I'm gonna find out right now when button raises" is totally flawed, given the 12:1, I really need to understand that. I'm here to learn.

[JTG51]

...but finishing second in a poker hand is the same as finishing last.


Actually, finishing second is a lot worse than finishing last. Second often costs you a lot of money. Last usually doesn't.

[rkiray]

Actually I raise with this in lmp more to buy the button than to steal the blinds (I wouldn't mind that, but generally the BB will call one more often than co or button will call 2 cold).

[bisonbison]

Finishing second in a poker hand is like finishing last

You're not trying to win poker hands. You're trying to win money.

KTs is easily dominated, and is tough to sell as a value bet against an AAx flop against just 2 other players. All you've got is two runner runner draws, and the straight draw is dead, cause the queen gives both players boats.

By the river you've invested 3BB. If the river card's a blank, from the way you played the hand it almost sounds like you would have bluffed at it.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Why is everyone saying raise? This is the part I'm unsure of (actually two things). I know you want to steal blinds with a raise in LMP, but don't you want to encourage CO and Button to limp in with trash, and flop a king or a nice pat flush or draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite simply ... no.

Anyone who has a good stash of hands in poker tracker can tell you that very few hands are worth more than the blinds. Anytime you raise with a hand that isn't AA or KK (and maybe a couple more like QQ or AKs) you should be happy to take the blinds.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
How many opponents do I want to have against it in this position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally you would have 0. If thats not the case, I would much rather have 1 than 2 or 3. All of this indicates a raise is much better than calling.