confidence issue...how do you guys feel about losing

[vkotlyar]

I play in a really lose 10-20 game. I am most certainly a winning player, and i expect to win every time i play. I realize that this is not possible, especially in a lose game where AK doesnt win often enough and 89s is good as gold. The other players are terrible. They will call with gut shots and underpairs to the river hoping to hit their sets. As you can probably guess, bad beats are a dime a dozen. In such a game, you can easily win 1000 and lose just as much playing high quality cards. My problem is that every time i lose in such a game, i begin to doubt myself. Am i really good, or am i just another delusional wanna-be who thinks that he can play better than everyone else. How can i be really good if i still occasionally lose to these clowns. I understand that my thinking is a bit off, but i was just wondering if other people feel like maybe they are no so good whenever they walk away a loser from a really good game. Also, what percentage of the time can a really good player expect to win. This question is more aimed towards tommy angelo, cleirkmeister, and the like. How do the those players that play for a living and are obviously the best player at the table all the time feel about losing.
Though I'd put this out there because even though playing poker is pays my rent, my lease, and puts food on my plate, i still sometimes feel like a loser......especially when i am by far the best player at the table.....
thanks to everyone for replying,
vitaly

[mike l.]

"whenever they walk away a loser from a really good game."

the flaw in your question is this: what you describe is not a really good game. what you describe is a wild game where many bets go in before the flop with crap and all too often junk hands take down big ones because the pot is so bloated they are not all that wrong to call. these sorts of games torture intermediate players because they cause great swings.

the best games are both very loose and very passive, games where you can gain respect and then slaughter the opposition with your better starting hands and much more aggressive betting, raising, and laydowns. predictable loose timid players are what you want to play against whenever possible, more so than wild fearless loose players who like to bet and raise with very little. i should know i play in very loose very aggressive games. these games are very profitable for expert players, but tough and frustrating for anyone else. so you need to change your perspective.

[vkotlyar]

you have guys limping in with Q4s and EP raises with KJ and Axs. Need I say more? They will also peel on a 456 2 tone board with two overcards, and call you down w 77 on a AKQ board.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
you have guys limping in with Q4s and EP raises with KJ and Axs. Need I say more? They will also peel on a 456 2 tone board with two overcards, and call you down w 77 on a AKQ board

[/ QUOTE ]
I’m sure he does. I do as well. 20/40 games, like this are quite common if not the norm in Southern CA. If you expect to win 2 out of 3 sessions I think you’ll be disappointed.

[Edge34]

Well, I'm certainly not Tommy Angelo, but if it means anything, i'll put my two cents in here real quick. First, since you're making rent and such, especially at 10/20 (where by my calculations the 1 BB/hr goal mean about 28K or so a year, give or take), you clearly are a winning player, to which I will not argue. However, since this is the case, you should know that losing nights will happen, they happen to everybody. While it may be a confidence shock to lose a grand in one session, this certainly should not harm your overall confidence in your game. Since you have found a way to make some kind of living off the game, I would just look back at what got me there. Its true that a player can remember every horrible beat with great accuracy, yet totally forget how they got where they are, which is the important part to remember. For every time a fish draws out on you, he'll miss that flush draw 3 times, and that straight draw 4 times. Stick with what got you where you are, and focus on how you're playing the game...identify any holes you may have and move on from there.

[turnipmonster]

are you talking about the PS 10/20?

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

no one wins every time, and most people have big downswings, especially in high variance games like you mentioned. all the successful pros I know (not very many) are absolutely tiltless, and do not let swings affect their game in the slightest. It sounds like you are a successful pro, and if so I'm surprised you're bothered at all by downswings. Also, it's very possible and statistically likely in your career to have losing months (playing fulltime), and to break even for more than 100 hours.

just our of curiousity, what's your std. dev in the game you were mentioning?

--turnipmonster

[Tommy Angelo]

"This question is more aimed towards tommy angelo, cleirkmeister, and the like. How do the those players that play for a living and are obviously the best player at the table all the time feel about losing."

Well, since you asked ...

If I ever thought to myself that I was the best player at the table, I'd probably feel a lot worse about losing than I do.

"I play in a really lose 10-20 game. I am most certainly a winning player, and i expect to win every time i play."

I never rate any players. I do not rate them in comparison to each other, or to me. These are not empty words. I mean this to my core. And I never expect to win. And I've never meant never to mean never as much as these nevers mean never.

How do I feel about losing? I don't like it. So I try to really hard to avoid it.



Tommy

[vkotlyar]

[ QUOTE ]
just our of curiousity, what's your std. dev in the game you were mentioning?



[/ QUOTE ]

i havent calculated it out, but wins and loses are usually above 500. For example, i played four times in the last 9 days, totalling 26 hours of play. +1200 +1400 -120 -800.
Unfortunately, the last figure is rather typical and will happen around once every ten sessions. The first two are slightly bloated...i ran hot /images/graemlins/smile.gif
And no, this isnt the PS 10-20. that game is a lot more reasonable. you can put players on a hand and occassionaly raise the turn w some king of draw and take the pot. I actually prever the PS game, but its too far away from me.
vitaly

[turnipmonster]

I have heard the PS 10/20 gets very loose late at night, but I almost never play late so I was wondering if the game is different then and that's what you were talking about.

It's a good game I think, generally soft with a few tough spots, with much lower variance than you described.

--turnipmonster

[andyfox]

Every time you make the correct decision, you win. Every time you make the incorrect decision, you lose. Roy Cooke says he doesn't keep track of how he does in each session. He sees where he stands monthly. There's nothing you can do when a guy hits a flush on the river or you don't. Keep taking the best of it.

I think losing in an individual session is harder on us amateurs who play only now and then; we have to wait a week or two with the bad taste in our mouth before we get another chance. Any everyday player who plays well knows he's gonna see those same guys tomorrow.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
Roy Cooke says he doesn't keep track of how he does in each session. He sees where he stands monthly.

[/ QUOTE ]
then he's got less accurate standard deviation statistics /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[David Steele]

I never rate any players. I do not rate them in comparison to each other, or to me.

Wow I would really like to know how your game selection system works.

D.

[leon]

"I think losing in an individual session is harder on us amateurs who play only now and then; we have to wait a week or two with the bad taste in our mouth before we get another chance. Any everyday player who plays well knows he's gonna see those same guys tomorrow"

I emphatically agree with this statement. When I lose at the casino, which realistically I used to make it to once a week and now even less frequently, it stings. This is all within the context that no one likes to lose. But when you book a loser to numerous suckouts and missed draws, and realize that if two or three key cards had come or not come up you'd be up two racks instead of down two racks, it's frustrating.

Contrast this with the online world where I usually get to play every day, 6 tables at once. Here I don't even bat an eyelash when I book a loser, precisely b/c I know the game will be there tomorrow and confirmation of winning ways comes that much faster. I dunno- intellectually when I lose in a B+M setting I know the reasons, I know the long run, and so forth, but sometimes it's harder to keep things all in perspective.

Interestingly this phenomenon also occurs with my wins- I still get very excited over a nice win in a B+M setting but much less so over an online one. This might also have to do with the fact that when I have a great online session I don't have any more hard cash in my bankroll, but some number in cyberspace has taken a jump.

Interesting post.

Leon

[I.Rowboat]

[ QUOTE ]
And I've never meant never to mean never as much as these nevers mean never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bravo! Echos of Hemmingway's "A Clean Well Lighted Place." The more I read your writing, Tommy, the more I appreciate it. And I write for a living.

[nykenny]

Vitaly,

[ QUOTE ]
and i expect to win every time i play. I realize that this is not possible

[/ QUOTE ]
i just want to share that i won the last 9 sessions i played there /images/graemlins/laugh.gif. well the 3 sessions before that i lost /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
My problem is that every time i lose in such a game, i begin to doubt myself. Am i really good, or am i just another delusional wanna-be who thinks that he can play better than everyone else. How can i be really good if i still occasionally lose to these clowns.

[/ QUOTE ]

you might want to play a little tighter so that you can account for all the hands you played after a session (losing esp.). my most recent 3 losing sessions are $1100 in 20-40 stud, $500 in 10-20 holdem, $780 in 10-20 holdem. I only felt bad after the stud game because i felt i didn't play very well. but i knew i played the 2 holdem sessions just fine - tight, and properly aggressive. so i didn't have doubt on myself at all, except i did feel bad about losing to those clowns - this is not avoidable. it's just embarasing to lose to players as bad as them. But don't forget, while they take turns to give you bad beat, they are also protecting each other from going bust by constantly trading pots. If the game is 5 handed and you against 5 total fish, you will win much more frequently. against just 1 fish, you can almost count on winning every time. so back to your concern, it is because the collective bad beat power that some times you lose in this loose game. plus it's 11-handed most of the time, you win less pots per hour too. just a thought.

[ QUOTE ]
even though playing poker is pays my rent, my lease, and puts food on my plate, i still sometimes feel like a loser....

[/ QUOTE ]

shut up... /images/graemlins/mad.gif well i work for my rent and food... hehe. does that mean i should not care if i win??? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Any everyday player who plays well knows he's gonna see those same guys tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

hence the saying "tomorrow is another day". to which i repond with "for you yes, but for me, no".

very good point

[nykenny]

roy cooke is THE hero of mine when it comes to real poker. i don't care if he computes accurate SD or not! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I never rate any players. I do not rate them in comparison to each other, or to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree that the countary might not be productive, yet i tend to do it myself. after reading your opinion, i came to a realization that maybe noting each players mistakes is a better approach.

[stripsqueez]

i still sometimes feel like a loser......especially when i am by far the best player at the table.....

[/ QUOTE ]

a strange statement taken in isolation

in a bigger picture poker is easily the "toughest" game i know - perhaps the most skillful card game is contract bridge - in competition bridge you play the same hands as your opponent so all the "luck" of what your dealt is removed - there is still plenty of luck in competition bridge though, and a good player regularly gets beaten by a bad player - in my observation really good bridge players get less upset about the "bad beats" than the not so good ones - thats because its happened to them before and they have a profound understanding of the game that more readily accomodates such occurrences

i know how you feel - in my view "tough" is the defining and best aspect of poker as a game

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
predictable loose timid players are what you want to play against whenever possible

[/ QUOTE ]

the best description of a fish i have seen ! i will have to borrow it later, may i?
/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Kenny

[nykenny]

haha, calling with 77 on AKQ board, how did u find out? stop bluffing these every suspicous fishes, man! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi David,

I wrote:

"I never rate any players. I do not rate them in comparison to each other, or to me."

In reply, you wrote:

"Wow I would really like to know how your game selection system works."

And in reply to that, I'd like to recite a little poem I heard a while back that kinda stuck.


I'll play any man
From any land
At any game
That he can name
For any amount
That he can count
As long as I like it

[Gabe]

he painted this on his van.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I never rate any players. I do not rate them in comparison to each other, or to me.

Wow I would really like to know how your game selection system works.

[/ QUOTE ]

This whole thread reminds me of a scene in Caddyshack:

Judge Smails: Ty, what did you shoot today?
Ty Webb: Oh, Judge, I don't keep score.
Judge Smails: Then how do you measure yourself with other golfers?
Ty Webb: By height.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Norm]

[ QUOTE ]
"i should know i play in very loose very aggressive games. these games are very profitable for expert players, but tough and frustrating for anyone else. so you need to change your perspective.


[/ QUOTE ]

So what adjustments should you make to make these games profitable?