OK now I'm mad.

[Vehn]

I had a decent start to my pokering tonight. I take seat 5 in the middle of the table in the $15/$30 and post behind the button. Couple people limp and I look down to pocket aces. Flop is ace queen queen. But I digress.

The player to my right is obviously an odd duck. Right after my 1st hand fireworks its folded to the player to his right, a regular. He asks for a chop and is refused, and visably upset as apparently they chopped in identical circumstances last orbit. 10 hands later its folded to the duck who turns to me, gives me a smile, taps his cards on the felt and asks "chop?". I politely refuse, and soon after am $15 richer after he check folds on the flop. Next hand I chop with the player on my left. I then make the dumbest mistake I've made all year - I move to the 3 seat and to the right of the duck. Oh well... I like the 3 seat...

In the first hour I've seen the duck raise the turn 4 times. Twice he's had top pair. Twice he's had two pair. This is unremarkable because he plays about half his hands usually to the river.

I've raised the last two hands in a row and won without a showdown. This time I pick up ace king of black and raise in middle position. The duck calls. An awful chasy RK calls in the big blind.

The flop is K - T - 6 rainbow. The BB checks, I bet, the duck calls, and the BB calls. The turn is a 7 of the 4th suit. The BB checks, I bet, and the duck raises. The BB agonizes for a while and coldcalls. Now what?

[mike l.]

you didnt tell us if duck would raise w/ an openender on the flop. if he would then you can catch up on the river maybe because he likely has two pair, maybe two small pair like 76. folding may be a better play though because bb may have two pair as well and if any of them having kings up youre in bad shape obviously. so i pick folding and waiting for better opportunity.

also, you chop sometimes at a full table, but then not others? in the same session? that sucks.

[Vehn]

I dunno if he would raise an open ender on the flop either. Probably not.

My chopping policy is simple. If the player on my left doesn't chop I don't chop with the player on my right. if either player is a prick and selectivly chops I don't chop with him at all.

[mike l.]

so the player on your left in this case doesnt chop? because it sounded like you had the bb and then didnt chop w/ the player in the sb (the duck) and then proceed to chop w/ the bb (on your left) when you were the sb, on the very next hand. read your original post, cause that's what it sounded like and it sure sounded bad.

[cero_z]

Hi vehn,
I definitely wouldn't fold. I'd likely call, since I may not be winning now, and the RK likely has T9, in which case he can't be moved. If the river is a T, 9, or 8, I'd probably fold, otherwise I pay off the duck's bet on the river, since you said yourself he may only have top pair. Also, he may be mad at you. Did this enter into your thinking at the time?

[Vehn]

Yes that's what happened. Why is that bad? I'm not going to chop with a selective chopper ever (looks at his hand and decides to accept/offer a chop). I'm always happy to chop with the player on my left regardless. I'm confused.

[cero_z]

Hi mike,
You got it right, but I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with it, as long as the players involved know ahead of time whether they'll be chopping with him. In this case, the duck was "selectively chopping", meaning he refused to chop WITH THE SAME PLAYER he'd chopped with earlier. That does suck.

[Vehn]

I think you're probably right in your analysis, but I don't think he was mad at me at the time. I didn't consider a fold for a minute, only whether or not to 3-bet the turn here.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I'm not going to chop with a selective chopper ever (looks at his hand and decides to accept/offer a chop)."

Why not? Is your reason financial or emotional?

Let's say that everyone had to be a selective chopper. When it got folded to the blinds, a game-within-a-game would commence as both players tried to size up how the other player felt about chopping, not wanting to be the first to offer, but still sending subtle clues, and oh my, it's a fun game. I've played it a bunch of times with a selective chopper who used to play at LC's.

So, if you have a selective chopper sitting next to you, which choice brings in the most money or loses the least? 1) never chopping 2) playing selective-chopping right along with him.

I'll take option two because of course I have to think I can outsmart him, and plus, it's fun. You might want to give this rare opportunity a try next time it comes up.



Tommy

[mike l.]

sorry i didnt realise he was a selective chopper. it sounded like there was still another guy who was a selective chopper and that he refused to chop with the duck.

i would very specifically tell him that he is a selective chopper and that you will only chop with him if it's consistent. many new players do not understand why selective chopping is unacceptable. they walk in to the game with no understanding of anything and just figure that both blinds look at their cards and if they both agree they dont like them they then decide to chop. they need to have it explained to them why it doesnt work to have it that way.

[mike l.]

yes i understand now. here's why i was confused:

"The player to my right is obviously an odd duck. Right after my 1st hand fireworks its folded to the player to his right, a regular. He asks for a chop and is refused, and visably upset as apparently they chopped in identical circumstances last orbit."

when vehn said "He asks for a chop..." i assumed he was referring to the duck he started off the paragraph talking about. apparently "He" referred instead to the regular.