He Called Me A Fish...

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Relatively tough 10/20 5-handed table on Paradise. I probably shouldn't even be playing, but oh well... One player is sitting out, so we're 4-handed at the moment.

Solid player open-raises from the cutoff, and I three-bet on the button with K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Tight player calls from the SB (uh oh?), BB folds, and cutoff calls. 3 to the flop, which comes:

J /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, CO leads out, I raise my overcards, SB folds, CO calls. Turn comes:

Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

He checks, I bet, he calls. River comes:

3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

He checks, I bet, he calls. My hand is good. This is when he called me a fish.

I thought my play of the hand was fairly straightforward; am I wrong?

ML4L

[Diplomat]

I'd complement him on his turn and river call.

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

About the hand itself, I think you played it fine; I'd either fold or raise pre-flop, leaning towards folding. I don't like a cold-call here.

-Diplomat

[nykenny]

this is when i usually give a speech about how i lose all the time and can never beat the game and i am just there for the fun not the money and that he should be happy that i play this way and i still didn't care if i lose or not. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Diplomat]

Yes.

-Diplomat

[stripsqueez]

i'm a regular in this school...

3 betting is optional but i think 4 handed its a reasonably standard play - the merits of 3 betting depend a lot on what you expect the blinds to do

playing 5 max i more often than not cold call (or 3 bet) a raise with KQo - its my notional cutoff for cold calling without specific information on my opponents

the rest of the hand is terribly normal - i played this hand in this school last night as the BB after UTG raised and i called as the BB heads up - i check raised the flop that was J9x rainbow - i think that is reasonably standard too - i too hit a queen on the turn and won

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[PokerPrince]

Perhaps this player isn't as 'solid' as you make him out to be. I think this term is thrown around WAY too loosely on here.

PokerPrince

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
About the hand itself, I think you played it fine; I'd either fold or raise pre-flop, leaning towards folding. I don't like a cold-call here.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Diplomat,
Did I hear you right? You would fold KQo on the button when the cutoff raises in a 4-handed game? I never fold in this spot, and virtually always re-raise. My guess is that you missed the fact that the game was short handed. If not, please explain (I'm not being sarcastic- it just would never occur to me to play this tight).

[cero_z]

Hi ML4L,
IMO your play was straight science. He held AJ or KJ, and got mad when you hit one of your many outs.

[DocHollyday]

Hey ML4L,

It is obvious who was the fish. However, I never get angry about someone calling me a fish. I want my opponents to consider me fish. The more I can make them believe that, the more they will underestimate my play and tend to make mistakes.

And anyways, if such comments piss you off, you've got the opportunity to just shut down the chat. That's what I do, if I want to play poker without the blabbering. It's only distraction anyways, right?

[MD_]

That play (the KQo fold) is too tight even at a ten handed table, unless the CO is very tight even in a steal position. These players are very rare.

-MD

[Diplomat]

I post too often after coming home for the night, usually with 1-5 Guiness in my belly. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I would almost always re-raise as well, given that it was 4-handed. But I would sooner fold than call in this situation.

[added thought after I posted this reply] On the other hand, given that the game was particularly tough, I'd probably fold more often than usual. Don't ask me how often, I have no idea. More often than folding I'd raise, and I'd call once in a blue moon.

-Diplomat

[J_V]

Folding is nowhere near as good as calling. Anytime i here these kind of claims where calling is the "worst" of the three options they are almost always wrong.

You'd be better off calling and raising the flop regardless than folding, IMO

[Ikke]

[ QUOTE ]
I want my opponents to consider me fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree with that. Shorthanded I want that people think of me as a WCP. Let them fear me and let me be in control. IMO that adds tremendous to your EV. If they arent fearing me, then I hope they see me as someone who bluffs too much, opening up a lot of thin value bets.

IMO about the worst image you can have shorthanded is that of a weak fish. You will get played with and you dont want that. But maybe I'm talking about the higher limits, which arent too loose pre and postflop. Things might change if the game is incredibly loose both pre and postflop.

I think Tommy's Hierachy of Fear is very important shorthanded, and you might want to search for that post.

Regards

[DocHollyday]

[ QUOTE ]
Shorthanded I want that people think of me as a WCP. Let them fear me and let me be in control.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it surely depends on your opponents, but I rather have them underestimate my powers, than the opposite. If the consider me as WCP they will try and play their very A-Game to beat me. If they think I'm easy to beat, possibility that they loose up too much (play too many hands for example) is much greater. However, I think there are two sides and shorthanded it may be more advantageous if you are feared, as more dough comes from stealing blinds and as there are way more heads-up situations.

Cheers

Doc

[Ikke]

[ QUOTE ]
If the consider me as WCP they will try and play their very A-Game to beat me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I notice in the high stakes online games (up to 100/200) is that people who I think fear me just go out of my way rather trying to squeeze little edges (although they might be giving up some +EV situations). This adds significantly to my profit.

I do exactly the same thing against players who I fear. I don't want to get involved with them too much and just focus on my weaker opposition. This is because it's so freaking difficult to make the right decisions against opponents you fear. Shorthanded, it's so easy to turn a +EV situation into a big minus one, if you're unsure what the right action is. So, I take the prudent way and pass up the small edges. Might be a symbiotic thing; he profits by me giving up small EV edges, and I profit by preventing myself from making bigger mistakes.

IMO, the player at the top in the hierachy only strengthens himself by projecting that image. People will pass up more edges and will become more predictable.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think there are two sides and shorthanded it may be more advantageous if you are feared, as more dough comes from stealing blinds and as there are way more heads-up situations.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and therefore my point might be more applicable to higher limit games.

Regards