Another (possibly different) 2+2 table.....

[Gomez22]

Festus brought up some good points about the normal 2+2 table that is played on Tuesday nights at Party relating to us micro-limit players.

1. It typically is a very tight/tough game, with little post flop action (besides HU)

2. IMO, it doesn't suit the immediate and/or basic needs of us small/micro players, as alot of the skills in use at that table are insignificant to the fish and calling stations we normally play against.

3. It tends to be more like a 15/30 table in play than any of the lower limits (.50/1.00 - 1/2 - 2/4)

Now..... I don't see anything wrong with the standard 2+2 table, personally, when I've played there, I thought it was great to play that style of poker. The only thing I ever saw that was wrong with it was that alot of us will never play a standard ring game where those skills are used very often..... and if we do, it's years away.

So........ based on an idea I stole from Festus, I am thinking of throwing the idea/thought out there of having a micro-limit table for micro-limit players to practice on. I would like for this table to be different from the standard 2+2 table, more in the line of being for relative newbies to hold em, and for those who are habitual(for lack of a better term) micro-limit players. In no way do I want to diminish the importance of the normal 2+2 table, as this table CAN and usually DOES teach many great concepts for advancing to higher limit play, but instead, would like to see and use this table as a "stepping stone" to that table, in a way.

In the meantime, I would like to know if this idea has any merits out there with all you micro-players. Should you think this would be a good idea, and would like to try it, please reply to this thread and give me your thoughts, what site(s) you might like to see this on, and what days/times would be good for you. If we can get enough people for this, maybe we can have 2 2+2 tables running for all of our educational purposes.

Thanks,

'Mez

[Festus22]

Of course count me in.

Any day works and the 6:30 - 7 Eastern start time is good also.

[Nottom]

The reason the 2+2 table is so tough is because thats what happens when you take away all the fish. I don't see how you can have a table full of 2+2ers and even come close to simulating a normal micro-limit table.

[MaxPower]

I think that the best training ground for micro-limit poker is an actual micro-limit game. Anyone who can beat a micro limit game, should be able to easily beat a 2/4 or 3/6 game.

I don't see what you guys are going to gain by playing against each other at a tight table. If the table is tight, it calls for a different strategy than you would use at micro limits.

For me the point of the original 2+2 table is to learn how to play against aggressive opponents without risking too much. That wil be helpfull if and when I move up to higher limits.

[Mike Gallo]

For me the point of the original 2+2 table is to learn how to play against aggressive opponents without risking too much. That wil be helpfull if and when I move up to higher limits.

Max,

You see the big picture /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rkiray]

Judging by their posts, the newbies make enough mistakes that a table full of them might be different enough to be interesting. They could set it up by using PMs or e-mail to send the passwords. Set the criteria however they feel best.

[Nottom]

But even newbie 2+2ers are a different breed from your normal Party table.

[lil']

Even a newbie poster takes more time to think about his decisions than your average fish. Just the act of posting here shows you take time to think about and improve your game.

People sometimes make the silly statement "I can't beat these bad players, but I can beat good players at higher limits." This is of course, false. It's the other way around.

Wouldn't it stand to reason, that if you can play well at the 2+2 table, you can beat any low limit table anywhere? If you can beat the best (or at least above average) you can beat the worst and the average.

[gonores]

I just don't see the benefit for the micro-limit player in playing at a table where players will constantly be the first one in from LP and infrequently have the odds to chase. No value betting opportunities, no chance to make big laydowns, etc. Putting yourself at a table with 9 other thinking players will never simulate a micro-limit table.

I'm not sure how long it would take (a couple of orbits or a couple of sessions), but a table of thinking players will naturally have players evolving their games, representative of a higher limit game.

Furthermore, it is more critical to keep micro-limit sharks away from one another because the money put in play at the shark table is a much bigger percentage of a micro-player's bankroll.

Here's my suggestion. We recruit a crew of SS and M-HS players. Every (day, week, name your time frame), one of us will play (25, 50, 100, name the number of hands) at a Party .5/1 table and post the hand histories (I don't use slavic's decoder too often...I'm not sure if it is capable of handling multiple hands at a time or not, but that would be sweet). It would give newer players a chance to see how experienced players turn a string of hands into profit.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not telling you that you shouldn't make the table...I'm just telling you I don't think you will be happy with the result. The skill sets you will develop at the table will not help your micro-limit game.

Doug

[TobDog]

[ QUOTE ]
People sometimes make the silly statement "I can't beat these bad players, but I can beat good players at higher limits." This is of course, false. It's the other way around.

Wouldn't it stand to reason, that if you can play well at the 2+2 table, you can beat any low limit table anywhere? If you can beat the best (or at least above average) you can beat the worst and the average.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think many of these posts are made by people who think they can beat better players because the results are similar to what would make logical results. If you flop TP TK and bet, against good players, if they have no piece of the flop to chase, they don't, against poor players, they will call, and occasionally catch on the river or last 2 cards to win.

I personally think this type of player who complains about being only able to beat good players is false, long term, they will lose, maybe break-even, and against poor players, the will lose because they first fail to adjust to the strategy their opponents play(usually little or none at all) then complain and steam when they lose, causing them to lose more money.

If I am a 3-6 player online and decide to take $500 to the 15-30 game, get AA and QQ in my first 2 hands and win 2 nice size pots, does that mean I am a winning player at 15-30? I know all the 15-30 players are thinking, "Sure you are, stay a while" you have to seperate the results in teh short term from the plays you make. If your decisions are solid and correct for the situation, then over time, you will win. Ok guys, let me have it on this one.

tobdog

[Nottom]

We could have some higher-limit players drop down and play extra fishy to simulate a normal party opponent.

[gonores]

I love helping the newbies and all, but I'm just not sure I could bring myself to piss away my hard-earned money to table of sharks by purposely playing bad.

[Gomez22]

OK.... it seems there are alot of negativities about a nicro-tbale made up of 2+2ers... I can understand that..... I also know that from time to time the 2+2 table is downright hectic/crazy....... I've seen (and been) at the table when 2 players are trying to bluff each other, and capping the flop and turn.... believe me, when starting out, this just looked like 2 maniacs throwing chips about with the ferocity of a japanese steakhouse chef chopping away at a pile of greens.

This table is merely a suggestion right now, and another thing to think about would be that it WOULD give some players that cannot make the 2+2 tables on Tuesdays another option to play and learn.

Playing against fish and playing against a table full of tight/agressive players are 2 completely different worlds. I just thought it might be a viable option for some of the less skilled players to learn a few things.

[Mike Gallo]

We could have some higher-limit players drop down and play extra fishy to simulate a normal party opponent.

Who would that help?

[TobDog]

[ QUOTE ]
We could have some higher-limit players drop down and play extra fishy to simulate a normal party opponent.

Who would that help?


[/ QUOTE ]

That wold help PartyPoker's income as far as the rake profit goes...

[illunious]

I would love to watch the 2+2 table tonight, how do I find it?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
We could have some higher-limit players drop down and play extra fishy to simulate a normal party opponent.


Who would that help?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I forgot the /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nottom]

I think you still fail to see the fault in you logic of starting a new table. Why do you think the new table would be any different from the first one?

[Alobar]

I for one, don't want to be playing microlimit poker for the rest of my life. I would like to move up to higher limits. and I think a table of 2+2ers who are gunna play like its 15/30 instead of .50/1 is going to help my game in the long run, far more than practicing the skills I need to beat microlimit. I mean I can practice those skills whenever I want, all I have to do is look for a loose 1/2 table. I however CANT practice the skills nessasary to win in the tougher games, because I'm not putting my bankroll into a 10/20 15/30 game to find out how Im playing in relation to players that think about what they are doing.

[Gomez22]

OK.. I can see that everyone here is against the idea of another table... whether it be for those that can't make the Tuesday night ones or one for newbie players...... I wasn't failing to see logic, I was trying to offer another avenue for some learning, that's all.....

And before anyone offers a rebuttal, no, I'm not mad, I'm not upset, I just don't feel like arguing the case anymore......

/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ThrillFactor]

Set it up and I'll certainly poke my head in and look around.

-will