He went for the Check Raise

[ACPlayer]

Playing at Foxwoods a couple of days ago, the following hand deveoped;

Two limpers in middle and late position, SB completes, I check holding K-5 off.

Flop: 8-6-4 rainbow.

SB checks, I bet, both limpers call, SB raises, I 3 bet limpers fold, SB 4-bets (no cap)i call. SB is a loose aggressive type.

Turn is an offsuit 4. Action Bet, call.

River is 7 making me a straight. Action Bet- Call. He turns over TPTK.

Comments invited.

I told him later that he wins the pot if he simply bets the flop or, perhaps, calls the flop and bets the turn.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, I bet, both limpers call, SB raises, I 3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your 3-bet w/ the gutshot/overcard. Cleaning out your King outs, I guess?

[ QUOTE ]
River is 7 making me a straight. Action Bet- Call. He turns over TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guys is so FOS that you 3-bet him on the flop w/ nothing after he has checkraised the field. But then you make your straight on the river and you flat-call because he might be full? I don't understand this either.

[ QUOTE ]
I told him later that he wins the pot if he simply bets the flop or, perhaps, calls the flop and bets the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the point here? Trying to teach the LAG about pot odds? Or just rub it in? In any case, I think he did great here. He got lots of action when he was ahead and you just called him down when you sucked out on him.

[Goodie]

So, what your saying is, your not willing to call one bet on the flop but instead willing to put four bets in? I don't at all understand why anyone with a bit of poker knowledge would play the hand this way. Three limpers and your betting out of position with King high. Then, your three betting out of position with king high. Then, your calling (apparently by your river play, in your mind with four outs on the turn). The river you make your hand and you decide now that this loose aggresive player has a monster and you better not raise.

Not to be overly harsh, but I don't think you made one good decision on any street in this hand. And your comment after the fact was ridiculous.

Peace.

Goodie

[lil']

I was wondering about the flop three bet. The only thing it seems to accomplish is possibly making your King outs good. However, if the SB has a real hand (and often people have a real hand when they check-raise the entire field) he is going to cap it. The chance to potentially clean up your outs doesn't make it worth the risk to me.

I also didn't understand the river call. I thought for certain you would raise.

[ACPlayer]

I think the 3-bet is reasonably automatic. I am going to call give the pot odds and the 3-bet cleans outs and gives me some options on the turn, if it is just called. I was unlucky to run into a stronger hand than I had anticipated in my opponent.

The most debatable plays in my mind are the initial bet and the flat call on the river. I think the flop and turn play once the initial bet is made is automatic.

Regarding the comment, he asked me about the hand in a later aside conversation.

[ACPlayer]

Regarding not calling one bet, that is correct, because I am only getting 5 to 1 on that call and have to worry about the players behind me.

[DocHollyday]

but after seeing that play, I'd put you on my fish-list.

I think everythings said by the other replies. I'd check over the books again.

Good luck

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding not calling one bet, that is correct, because I am only getting 5 to 1 on that call and have to worry about the players behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What odds are you getting when you 3-bet expecting the limpers to fold and the checkraiser to call?

[ACPlayer]

If he has any of the following hands for his C-R:

Top pair weak kicker
Middle pair weak kicker
Pair and a straight draw (like 6-5)
Second pair (giving his a pair and straight draw also)
Second, third pair Ace Kicker


All of which he would c-r the flop with and then may check the turn --following my 3-bet --(also two pair or even flopped straights hands where he decides to go for a turn check raise) then I may get the option of a free card on the turn.

[lil']

Top pair weak kicker
Middle pair weak kicker
Pair and a straight draw (like 6-5)
Second pair (giving his a pair and straight draw also)
Second, third pair Ace Kicker

None of these hands are likely since he check raised the entire field.
Top pair strong kicker is the weakest hand I would put him on.

[Goodie]

You didn't give stakes, so let's just say 10-20. Your saying that five to one wasn't enough? When you three bet the flop, your putting in 20 more with a pot of 90. Isn't this 4 1/2 to one? As for taking the free card, it's fairly unlikely that's a possibility. If this player is willing to make it four bets with only top pair, top kicker, and willing to bet that river, I'm pretty sure he's not giving any free cards with whatever hand he's check raising the flop with.

Not to mention the fact that one of the limpers might call the three bets and may have a monster. Then your in a world of hurt.

The way you played this hand I just can't believe is winning poker.

Peace.
Goodie

[JTG51]

None of these hands are likely since he check raised the entire field.

I never understand why people respond like this. ACPlayer just told you those are likely hands for this player. Why would you ignore the information given and respond based on how you think the opponent should play?

[anatta]

I like your initial flop bet, I think its a decent semibluff with one checking and just two to act.

Its probably better to just call the check-raise. The others will probably just call, giving you better odds on your gutshot, and you don't risk a 4 bet. Yes, you don't clean up your king outs, but this assumes 1. They have a king (which they fold), 2. One of the remaining 2 kings comes (4% chance on the turn), and 3. Its good. This is a small pot, I think you should play it straight up. (Always remember that if you play it "straight up", you give your opponent a small chance to say "Nyet! he beat me, straight up...pay him. Pay that man his money." ha, ha, ha, lol. I crack myself up)

The way you played it, it appears that you didn't take his check-raise of the field seriously, but his cap you did (hence your river call). On the turn you are getting 7.5:1. A seven outer is about 6:1. But you could be drawing dead or have only 4 outs. I think if you don't feel like you can raise the river if you hit your str8, you should just fold on the turn.

[lil']

I guess I didn't read his post the same way you did. If he check-raised with some of those hands I would move him from LAG territory to borderline nutty.

I guess my point was the risk of the pot being capped by this guy doesn't make the 3 bet worth it to me, although I understood the reasoning behind it. Just calling and letting the other two call made more sense.

[Philuva]

I think the SB played it well. He got 6 additional small bets in the pot on the flop, got it head's up, while being 2.5 to 1 favorite. Then he got 1 more big bet in the pot on the turn as 5.25 to 1 favorite. Then it only cost 1 big bet when he was behind on the river.

I am still not sure how he would have won given the advice you gave. He calls the flop bet and bets the turn. You are getting 5 to 1 on your turn call as only a 5.25 to 1 dog. I am sure you make this call with the implied odds.

The only thing he does by your suggestion is get in less money while he is the favorite.

[J_V]

3 bet reasonably automatic? Um, no. This hand was botched bad.

[glen]

"I was unlucky to run into a stronger hand than I had anticipated in my opponent."

Let me get this straight, you bet, there are two callers, the sb check-raises the field and you find it unlucky that you ran into a stronger hand. I think you're lucky he had almost the lightest hand one could put him on. . .

[ACPlayer]

Even on the river I believed that his most likely hands were a pair and a straight draw. To my way of thinking, LAGs bet and raise draws to straights and flushes. Once I three bet (which he is going to respect more than my initial bet) and he re-raised I was quite surprised that his hand was not one where there was a potential for a big hand.

I think your point of a possible turn fold is valid.

I think that a flop fold can be considered, I dont think a call on the flop is the correct play getting 9 to 1 and letting other players trail in (other K, overcards and gut shots that kill my straight cards).

Overall, on the flop I think it is close between folding and raising. Perhaps I chose the overly aggressive play.

I think that a river call is the best play.

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that a flop fold can be considered, I dont think a call on the flop is the correct play getting 9 to 1 and letting other players trail in (other K, overcards and gut shots that kill my straight cards).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you just call his check-raise, assuming the other players call, you will be getting 11:1 immediate odds to see the turn. A four outter is 10.75:1. The problems for your hand is that your implied odds are hurt by the one card nature of your draw, and chopping is possible if you hit (although probably the only candidate for the chop is the SB).

If you hit on the turn, the SB will normally still bet the turn, then you will raise. A loose player will probably call you down here, gaining you 3 Big Bets. I think this is enough, coupled with the possible king outs, to continue on the flop once check-raised. Plus, there is the idea that you don't want to be seen as a "folder" at the first sign of flop aggression.

I prefer the three-betting to folding, but think calling is the best. I don't think three-betting is that bad when you consider the range of SB's check-raising hands and the possibility of a free turn card.

[J_V]

Can we stop telling people to check over the F#$@#$ing books? The dude clearly has read them and displayed that he knows what he is talking about even if he chose a bad player here. My god, if posted my worst hands.......

Oh yeah, and can we stop talking about the books as if they are some bible where if you read them, you'll be saved. They are just the start to becoming good.