Trop. Tournament Results

[morgant]

Been playing poker for just about a year now. Like the rest of the newer generation players i learned how to really play online. I have probably about 20 live B&M sessions under my belt and about 7 live tournaments. Well I killed it this weekend at the Tropicana. I played the saturday morning 50+10 rebuy and placed fourth out of 114. I did rebuy once but it proved a well spent $50 dollars. Just writing to brag and thank the boards for the wealth of information provided to anyone with access to a computer and the ability to read. I was in second chip position 5 people left. The large stack had about 85% of the chips in play and was sitting to my left(bummer for me). With four left i was dealt KhQh UTG=CO. Blinds were 2k/4k with a 500 ante. I bet 12k. Which he reraised another 6k. I had to call and was left with about 18k in chips. The flop came with really low rags and i considered going all in, but he would certainly call and i didnt want to lose to an ace hig or a pocket pair etc.. I checked to him and he bet enough to put me all in..so i folded. I managed to steal back some chips and was about even with the other two. We were fighting for the 2-4 spots. I got myself back to almost the 2 chipped dude and was waiting for this old rock to bust out. Started to lose my patience and was folded to in the small blind with A 5o and pushed in....He had a pair of fives and i got no help... I hate big stacks and i hate that i was losing my patience and couldnt have waited for a better spot with him not already in the pot..arrrrggghh. Great day though and thanks to all the posters again.

[Mike Gallo]

Congrats. Excellent job.

Amazing they had that many players, the Sands also had an event that day.

[morgant]

thanks man...its funny i placed 7th in it last time and was pissed i didnt finish top five this time i wanted 1 or 2. Oh well i guess that will provide me the motivation i need for improvement. I stayed at the sands and wanted to play that event sat. but didnt make enough at the taj friday night to provide my buy in only enough for the trop...

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It sounds like you started the hand with 36K in chips. If so, rather than raise to 12K with KQ, you might prefer to just go all-in instead.

Also, if you raised the 4K big blind to 12K, the big stack shouldn't be allowed to raise just 6K more. Since your raise was by 8K, he has to also raise that amount, to at least a total of 20K rather than 18K.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[morgant]

you are right about the raise being incorrect...it was happening all day long, i am not that aware of it due to my internet education and online the minimum bets are set in stone....i do however recall several times people raising less than the big blind and sometimes noone noticed and sometimes we did. In hindsight i thought about that KQ hand and going all in but...I wanted to bet enough to take the blinds, but also be able to get away from it with the ability to still move up in place. I was hoping the big stack who wasn't in the blinds and had no reason to defend would stay out of the way...WRONG....these are estimates, i had just under 40k, the next two were about 20k(SB) and 25k(BB), the big stack had almost 130K. This was a critical hand for me. You think i should have gone all in huh? The small blind would fold to any raise unless he had a monster, so i didnt need to be all in against him, the bb would call or come over the top with a medium ace.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

While sometimes half-measures are the sign of a prudent mind, other times they are the sign of a person who won't commit. In a spot like this, it is often better to commit to the hand completely, or to fold it.

There are exceptions. Mostly if the big blind is a person who will call too often because they've just got to see the flop, but who is willing to fold postflop whenever the flop doesn't hit them pretty good. Against this person you can raise to 2-2.5xBB, and then bet the flop everytime they check, as they will fold. Against them you don't want to go all-in preflop, as doing so will mean you're going to lose from 25-75% of the time, rather than win small the large majority of the time, and not go broke the rest of the time.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[45Player]

I’m curious as to why you would recommend going all-in preflop with KQ. As the poster pointed out, a raise to 12k was sufficient to make the small blind fold unless he had a big hand. It should also be sufficient to make the big blind fold most of the time. Also one would expect the big stack to fold pre-flop most of the time to a raise of 12k.

However by going all in preflop with KQ, you’re only going to be called by a hand which is better than KQ. So by doing that you’ve no chance to get away from the hand.

I’m only asking because I would have played it exactly the same way as the original poster. I would reason that I will risk 12k to win the blinds. I still have 28K left if things go wrong which still leaves me in a reasonable position.

While sometimes half-measures are the sign of a prudent mind, other times they are the sign of a person who won't commit.

I can’t argue with that, but I’m not so sure that it applies in this instance.

Thanks

45Player

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I don't necessarily recommend it. However, in many cases, it would be the correct play.

You will get many hands that are ahead of you to fold. If I raise your BB all-in for that amount, are you going to call with A2? A3? Even A9? What about 22? 33? Even 77?

Given the amount of dead money out there, even though this raise is going to get you to fold some hands that are behind me, that's just fine. I'd rather have the guaranteed win of the blinds at this stage rather than race for all my chips against 9Ts. ;-)

There is one main issue that would drive my decision on this hand. If the big blind is a player who likes to see the flop and is almost as likely to call for an all-in as he is for 12K, then I raise to 12K preflop, and bet every flop he checks to me to get him to fold postflop (unless I flop a monster, in which case I will sometimes check as a trap). If the big blind is a player who is a lot more likely to call for 12K than if I raise all-in, I probably go all-in instead of making a 3x raise.

In other words, I pick the play that is the most likely to get the blinds to fold at some point.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[45Player]

You will get many hands that are ahead of you to fold. If I raise your BB all-in for that amount, are you going to call with A2? A3? Even A9? What about 22? 33? Even 77?

No, but would you fold these hands to a raise of 8k?. I’m not sure of my answer all the time to this but I don’t know if I want to call a raise of 8k leaving me with 17k and out of position.

In other words, I pick the play that is the most likely to get the blinds to fold at some point.

Yes, again I can’t argue with that strategy but if I go all-in and I’m called by either the big stack or the big blind then I don’t like my chances with KQ. It’s not a hand I want to get too clever with (even short-handed). I reckon a raise to 12k should do the job often enough.

[morgant]

I will never know what the big stack had, and possibly he sensed my inability to commit to the hand and figured he could cripple me if i didnt hit the flop? I still however feel i played the KQ pretty well. I liked the hand and thought of it well enough to steal some blinds, but still wanted to be able to get away and move up in place. If i pushed all in, it would have sent the message that i have supreme confidence in my hand and who knows if the bigstack would have called. This is the dilema when playing against someone directly to my left with such a chip advantage.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
I liked the hand and thought of it well enough to steal some blinds, but still wanted to be able to get away and move up in place.

[/ QUOTE ]
This thought process makes perfect sense. Yet, that doesn't mean it's the optimal play.

One of the things that makes great players great is their ability to sense your weakness (and strength).

The fact that you want to give yourself room to get away from the hand may be sensed by a good player, and they will use it against you. Especially if you have enough chips left that they think they can raise now and get you to fold.

That's why going all-in, even as a big overbet, is sometimes correct. By removing all possibility of getting you to fold, you can reduce their skill. If they're holding 28o, it doesn't matter how weak they sense you are, they still have to fold. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)