12-11-2001, 05:19 PM
Further down the forum is a post which Will in new haven posted Saturday, and it sets up the two topics of my post. His post is (partially) reprinted here, for reference:
Re: loose players who resent tight players/ego
Posted By: Will in New Haven
Date: Saturday, 8 December 2001, at 11:32 a.m.
"…I see a great many posts where the player talks about his (or her) table image and how the other players know that she only plays good cards. Boy, I wouldn't want them to think that way about me. I generally play a good deal tighter than the table but I don't think you have to make it obvious.
Also, a tight player doesn't have to be antisocial. It helps to talk about whatever the table is discussing, etc.
If you are there to take a player's money, as we all are, might as well be good company while you are at it. "
Part one: Image
Mason's "general" recommendation (for hold'em) is that a tight image is best. Some players don't agree, they think a loose image is better. Will thinks you shouldn't make it obvious if you are playing tighter than the table. I'm going to take a more enigmatic, philosophical approach (or maybe it's the chicken-shit approach) and say "it depends."
Of the players I play against regularly, few play tighter than I do. My hangout is full of LAGs, so it's not hard to be one of the tightest players (there are a few tighter than me though). Normally, there aren't many players even paying attention to such things as how tight or loose their opponents are playing. However, once in a while I have been razzed about playing tight, usually by a very loose aggressive player with plenty of ahem, how should I say it… I'm looking it up right now… Charisma! That's it! (Just got my OFFICIAL dictionary of p'litically correct diplomatic bullshit, it's come in handy already!). I believe that you should cultivate an image with your opponents that induces them to play incorrectly against you, whether that be a loose image or a tight one. You could potentially cultivate different images in the minds of different opponents too.
Against tight players or rocks, I definitely want to have a tight image, so I can bluff them, or otherwise have them get out of my way when I'm in a pot. Once I was playing and had gotten several big hands like AA, AK, QQ, etc that I took to the river and won with, but had folded virtually everything else I was dealt for a couple hours. Then I got KK and flopped top set. On the river, no one called me, but someone commented something to the effect "AK again." Having heard this comment, I showed my hand anyway, because I wanted to reinforce the belief he had against me. Later, I changed gears and bluffed a couple times successfully, because everyone KNEW I "had a good hand."
Against LAG players who are needling me about playing too tight, I am likely to do something to loosen up my image. A loudmouth who's needling you for being tight could cost you a bunch of money in a session if the rest of the table listens to him and stops giving you action. This would be especially bad if you were in fact playing very tightly, yet your loose opponents were making frequent mistakes against you, such as cold-calling your raises. When this happens, I like to do something to loosen up my image a bit. One of my favorite hands was in a very LAG TILT type game, and I was playing very tightly. I won a huge pot in the SB with a flopped 2nd nut flush, and immediately afterwards, one of the players called me a rock. Another player was agreeing with him. Grrrrrrrr… The very next hand, I played 7c2c on the button, flopped top pair, raised the flop, bet the turn and river, and won the pot. Then I tossed my cards his way and said "rock, my ass!" Got no respect the rest of the night. Was it a bad play to call with 72s? Yes, but I got into the pot for one bet, and I wasn't going to let my image take hits like that. I will control my own image, not someone else who feels like branding me with their opinion.
Part two: The CARDINAL sin
Part of your image has to do with how you interact with other players at the table. This is very important, especially if you play in a local cardroom with many regulars. Regardless of whether you're loose or tight, I am of the firm opinion that you should be well-liked by your opponents, or that you should at least keep quiet if you're not going to be sociable. Still, I think socializing at the table is a critical part of the game. I can socialize and still pay attention at the same time, but I don't talk much while actually playing a hand (or to others while in a hand). I recognize the need to socialize at the table, and I think this skill actually translates into theoretical profit (perhaps hard to quantify, but there nonetheless). Believe me, the tiny % of what you miss when you ARE talking should not be more than what you gain by being friendly (you just make sure to pay attention at critical times).
This leads me to the main point, the cardinal sin. There's this aspiring player who plays at the cardroom. He has read several of the best books, "plays tight" (for whatever THAT's worth), and tries to win money by being a "good player." However, I have a criticism of his play that I believe will cost him far more in the long run than any other mistake a player could make. He's not "table friendly." This player has been playing for several years, yet still takes up way too much time when it's his turn to act, thus slowing down the game. He counts every chip out one at a time, and in 3-6 or 4-8 kill with $1 chips, this can really slow up the game. Learn to handle chips already! He frequently does not have a friendly air about him when playing, he's often kind of a know-it-all, gives unwanted "lessons," and is sometimes very harshly critical of other players, especially if they have sucked out on him. But the biggest criticism I have is that I saw him commit what I believe is the cardinal sin: driving the fish out of the game.
We were playing one night in a fun, loose game. The man on my right is an infrequent player. He's nice guy, not terribly talkative, but amiable and pleasant. He comes and basically drops a hundred or two, then leaves. Once in a while he takes home a nice win, and the system works for him. He's not playing to win, he's a social player. Now in the hand in question, the villain of the story is in the blind, and the loose player is in the cutoff, I'm on the button. We're basically at opposite ends of the table. So the river comes and I make the nut straight, we are the only three left in the pot. The villain hasn't acted yet, and as usual, he's in no hurry. The dealer mistakenly passes up the villain and goes to the loose player, who checks. Now the villain all of a sudden says he didn't act, and wants to bet. The loose player is not happy about now having to call a bet when he thought it had been checked (wait till he finds out what I was going to do!). The villain then starts arguing with the loose player, voices start getting raised, and "unpleasantness" ensues. The dealer is having trouble getting a hold of the situation, so I stepped in to try and ease the tension. I said to the loose player that I was going to bet if it had been checked to me anyway, but that now that there was a bet, I would just call, and got my chips ready to call. When the dealer finally calmed them down, I just called instead of raising, in an attempt to ease the situation. The two big bets I would lose by not raising would be worth it to keep the loose player in the game, and the table generally happy and calm. The loose player took his chips and left after the next hand.
Driving this player out of the game is about the worst play I've ever seen an aspiring player make, the cardinal sin, if you ask me. The fish are your customers, and you should treat them as such. Make them feel good, give them what they want. You want their money, and you'll get it. But if they don't get what they want, you won't get their money, because they won't be in the game. If they want socializing, then SOCIALIZE! If they want friendly rivalry, bantering, and a bit o' shit-talkin', give them what they want! If they just want a nice pleasant game, keep the game nice and pleasant. You don't have to over do it, but don't just be a dead silent stone killer either*. Even if you're getting killed miserably, sucked out on time and time again by the most improbable of draws, just be quiet and shut your yap. Sometimes playing a winning game involves skills that can't be taught in poker strategy books. Poker is a social game, and your social skills at the table are another area you must master in order to be a winning player.
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
*ironically, in tournaments, I tend to think that refraining from socializing much, and even being disliked, might have some advantages, especially if it causes players to play even more overly tightly against you than they already do.
Re: loose players who resent tight players/ego
Posted By: Will in New Haven
Date: Saturday, 8 December 2001, at 11:32 a.m.
"…I see a great many posts where the player talks about his (or her) table image and how the other players know that she only plays good cards. Boy, I wouldn't want them to think that way about me. I generally play a good deal tighter than the table but I don't think you have to make it obvious.
Also, a tight player doesn't have to be antisocial. It helps to talk about whatever the table is discussing, etc.
If you are there to take a player's money, as we all are, might as well be good company while you are at it. "
Part one: Image
Mason's "general" recommendation (for hold'em) is that a tight image is best. Some players don't agree, they think a loose image is better. Will thinks you shouldn't make it obvious if you are playing tighter than the table. I'm going to take a more enigmatic, philosophical approach (or maybe it's the chicken-shit approach) and say "it depends."
Of the players I play against regularly, few play tighter than I do. My hangout is full of LAGs, so it's not hard to be one of the tightest players (there are a few tighter than me though). Normally, there aren't many players even paying attention to such things as how tight or loose their opponents are playing. However, once in a while I have been razzed about playing tight, usually by a very loose aggressive player with plenty of ahem, how should I say it… I'm looking it up right now… Charisma! That's it! (Just got my OFFICIAL dictionary of p'litically correct diplomatic bullshit, it's come in handy already!). I believe that you should cultivate an image with your opponents that induces them to play incorrectly against you, whether that be a loose image or a tight one. You could potentially cultivate different images in the minds of different opponents too.
Against tight players or rocks, I definitely want to have a tight image, so I can bluff them, or otherwise have them get out of my way when I'm in a pot. Once I was playing and had gotten several big hands like AA, AK, QQ, etc that I took to the river and won with, but had folded virtually everything else I was dealt for a couple hours. Then I got KK and flopped top set. On the river, no one called me, but someone commented something to the effect "AK again." Having heard this comment, I showed my hand anyway, because I wanted to reinforce the belief he had against me. Later, I changed gears and bluffed a couple times successfully, because everyone KNEW I "had a good hand."
Against LAG players who are needling me about playing too tight, I am likely to do something to loosen up my image. A loudmouth who's needling you for being tight could cost you a bunch of money in a session if the rest of the table listens to him and stops giving you action. This would be especially bad if you were in fact playing very tightly, yet your loose opponents were making frequent mistakes against you, such as cold-calling your raises. When this happens, I like to do something to loosen up my image a bit. One of my favorite hands was in a very LAG TILT type game, and I was playing very tightly. I won a huge pot in the SB with a flopped 2nd nut flush, and immediately afterwards, one of the players called me a rock. Another player was agreeing with him. Grrrrrrrr… The very next hand, I played 7c2c on the button, flopped top pair, raised the flop, bet the turn and river, and won the pot. Then I tossed my cards his way and said "rock, my ass!" Got no respect the rest of the night. Was it a bad play to call with 72s? Yes, but I got into the pot for one bet, and I wasn't going to let my image take hits like that. I will control my own image, not someone else who feels like branding me with their opinion.
Part two: The CARDINAL sin
Part of your image has to do with how you interact with other players at the table. This is very important, especially if you play in a local cardroom with many regulars. Regardless of whether you're loose or tight, I am of the firm opinion that you should be well-liked by your opponents, or that you should at least keep quiet if you're not going to be sociable. Still, I think socializing at the table is a critical part of the game. I can socialize and still pay attention at the same time, but I don't talk much while actually playing a hand (or to others while in a hand). I recognize the need to socialize at the table, and I think this skill actually translates into theoretical profit (perhaps hard to quantify, but there nonetheless). Believe me, the tiny % of what you miss when you ARE talking should not be more than what you gain by being friendly (you just make sure to pay attention at critical times).
This leads me to the main point, the cardinal sin. There's this aspiring player who plays at the cardroom. He has read several of the best books, "plays tight" (for whatever THAT's worth), and tries to win money by being a "good player." However, I have a criticism of his play that I believe will cost him far more in the long run than any other mistake a player could make. He's not "table friendly." This player has been playing for several years, yet still takes up way too much time when it's his turn to act, thus slowing down the game. He counts every chip out one at a time, and in 3-6 or 4-8 kill with $1 chips, this can really slow up the game. Learn to handle chips already! He frequently does not have a friendly air about him when playing, he's often kind of a know-it-all, gives unwanted "lessons," and is sometimes very harshly critical of other players, especially if they have sucked out on him. But the biggest criticism I have is that I saw him commit what I believe is the cardinal sin: driving the fish out of the game.
We were playing one night in a fun, loose game. The man on my right is an infrequent player. He's nice guy, not terribly talkative, but amiable and pleasant. He comes and basically drops a hundred or two, then leaves. Once in a while he takes home a nice win, and the system works for him. He's not playing to win, he's a social player. Now in the hand in question, the villain of the story is in the blind, and the loose player is in the cutoff, I'm on the button. We're basically at opposite ends of the table. So the river comes and I make the nut straight, we are the only three left in the pot. The villain hasn't acted yet, and as usual, he's in no hurry. The dealer mistakenly passes up the villain and goes to the loose player, who checks. Now the villain all of a sudden says he didn't act, and wants to bet. The loose player is not happy about now having to call a bet when he thought it had been checked (wait till he finds out what I was going to do!). The villain then starts arguing with the loose player, voices start getting raised, and "unpleasantness" ensues. The dealer is having trouble getting a hold of the situation, so I stepped in to try and ease the tension. I said to the loose player that I was going to bet if it had been checked to me anyway, but that now that there was a bet, I would just call, and got my chips ready to call. When the dealer finally calmed them down, I just called instead of raising, in an attempt to ease the situation. The two big bets I would lose by not raising would be worth it to keep the loose player in the game, and the table generally happy and calm. The loose player took his chips and left after the next hand.
Driving this player out of the game is about the worst play I've ever seen an aspiring player make, the cardinal sin, if you ask me. The fish are your customers, and you should treat them as such. Make them feel good, give them what they want. You want their money, and you'll get it. But if they don't get what they want, you won't get their money, because they won't be in the game. If they want socializing, then SOCIALIZE! If they want friendly rivalry, bantering, and a bit o' shit-talkin', give them what they want! If they just want a nice pleasant game, keep the game nice and pleasant. You don't have to over do it, but don't just be a dead silent stone killer either*. Even if you're getting killed miserably, sucked out on time and time again by the most improbable of draws, just be quiet and shut your yap. Sometimes playing a winning game involves skills that can't be taught in poker strategy books. Poker is a social game, and your social skills at the table are another area you must master in order to be a winning player.
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
*ironically, in tournaments, I tend to think that refraining from socializing much, and even being disliked, might have some advantages, especially if it causes players to play even more overly tightly against you than they already do.