Marooned on Weak-Tight Island

[Festus22]

Here's the story:

I achieved a milestone this weekend by passing the $2K profit mark since I began playing more seriously in July. 95% of my play is at Party $0.5/1. My problem (at least I think it's one) is that I must have some kind of phobia toward PF raising. I'll raise AA, KK, QQ, AKs and AKo pretty much every time but I almost always limp all other playable hands. Of course if it's folded to me in MP with AQs I'll open raise but if I'm UTG with that hand, I'll almost always limp. Same for JJ, AJs, KQs, etc. It's funny in that when I click the "call" button, I know I "should" be raising but for some reason, I don't anyway.

Now when it comes to post flop play, I'm usually a fold/bet/raise (probably in that order) player. I rarely call unless it's something like a non-nut draw or a call/fold-the-turn-unimproved situation. I'm probably the anti-calling station and I think that helps me a lot. But what has been pointed out as another weakness is my showdown winning percentage which is currently around 75%. Some have said that's way too high and I'm folding too many potential winning hands. I would probably agree with that also.

So I don't raise enough PF and fold too many hands post flop. Here's my dilema. Even with these "faults", I've developed a winning strategy for Party $0.5/1 by playing this way and obviously don't want to do anything to screw it up. At this pace, I may make maybe $5K/yr playing $0.5/1 which is a nice little supplemental income. Yet I continue to feel I'm playing "incorrectly" based on posts and responses to posts.

Should I make a conscious effort to fundamentally change? Anyone have any advice?

[pufferfish]

As far as the pre-flop raises go, perhaps you could slowly include additional hands. Take JJ for example and raise it every fourth time. Use whatever criteria are somewhat comfortable for you.

If you are playing multiple tables perhaps your “showdown winning percentage” is high because you don’t have a good enough read on your opponents. If you treat most of your opponents the same then I can see how you might be too conservative. I’m not sure how to solve that since I only play one table at a time.

GL,
pf

[lil']

Take JJ for example and raise it every fourth time.
Raise it every time! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

[Festus22]

As you know quite well, Party $0.5/1 games are extremely loose. I base some of my PF play on the recommendations in HEPFAP specifically regarding JJ and AQo and by extention, other similar hands. I don't think I'm that far off base by calling LP with JJ after 4 limpers. Folded to me or maybe one limper - yes, I'd raise but that's a rare event. I think a lot of poster advice goes against what's recommended in the Loose Game section of HEPFAP and I think that's where my confusion lies.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
Take JJ for example and raise it every fourth time.
Raise it every time! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif Classic

[lil']

Hey, do you wanna get off the island or not? I'm giving you a rowboat and you're chucking the oars in the ocean! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[psychprof]

For me, the issue is bigger than just whether or not to raise JJ.

[ QUOTE ]
Even with these "faults", I've developed a winning strategy for Party $0.5/1 by playing this way and obviously don't want to do anything to screw it up. At this pace, I may make maybe $5K/yr playing $0.5/1 which is a nice little supplemental income. Yet I continue to feel I'm playing "incorrectly" based on posts and responses to posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope your post will generate more discussion regarding aggressive strategies at micro-limits and the topic of playing "profitable" and/or "proper" poker. I am in the same situation as you and I'd been thinking about posting a message like yours for a while now. I started in August and have also passed the 2K mark playing .5/1 and 1/2. I play tighter than almost all of my opponents (though I still have some leaks), but importantly, I would consider my play to be somewhere between passive and weak, and I'm probably closer to weak than I am to passive. Even so, I'm making over 5bb/hr at these stakes. Clearly I'm making a profit, but at what price?

Specifically, I'm playing against the worst opponents I can find. I'm not utilizing very many poker "strategies", and I'm certainly not playing aggressively (unless the flop hits me hard). Basically, I'm not learning how to play "great" poker. When I do try more aggressive strategies, my variance increases, but my bb/hr doesn't seem to change.

Another part of the dilemma is that I've been told that when you move up to, say, 5/10 stakes, making 1bb/hr is considered good. Well, that's $10 an hour which is what I make now playing $1/2. Furthermore, I've been watching 2/4 and 3/6 games and get the impression that my current semi-tight-passive-weak strategy will allow me to succeed there as well as I do at 1/2 stakes.

I'm not suggesting that weak play is good; I'm just agreeing with you that it can be profitable at these micro-limits, and that I also struggle with the "contradiction" of my success despite my "improper" play.

Psychprof

[PokerNoob]

It sounds like you are tight/aggressive except for the preflop raise. Do you have a large percentage of river folds? When you do lose a showdown, are you shown a hand the player didn't have appropriate odds to be drawing for?

[JTG51]

I think you have to answer this question on your own. Everyone's motivations for playing are different, to answer your question you have to decide what yours are.

If you are comfortable and satisfied with your current style and win rate, then there's no reason to change. If you want to eventually move up in limits where it will be much more important to squeeze more and more EV out of each hand, then you'll have to make some changes.

It sounds like you are happy with poker being a hobby that makes you a little extra cash. If that's true, don't feel pressured to change what makes you happy.

[Festus22]

Nice post and you're exactly right. Who knows, maybe my style is optimal for Party $0.5/1, maybe not. But it works for me and I enjoy it. Hmmmm, that wasn't so tough. Why didn't I think of that?!

[Festus22]

But I kind of like my island. As long as Ginger and MaryAnn aren't going anywhere. Now if I could just get rid of those pesky Howells.

[lil']

What JTG said is important. Playing out of your comfort zone is hard. However, I would add it is essential if you want to grow.

I come here looking for advice to advance my game and push me onward and upward, and I give the same type of advice in return. I started off playing .25/.50, and have successfully moved up to $10-$20 online using the advice I have received here. I have no intention of slowing down just yet. When I first started out, 10-20 was the highest limit they had on Pokerstars, and I never thought I would be able to play there, but I can, because I pushed myself to try new things and take chances. (Now they play $100-200 at Stars. A wee bit high for my modest bankroll.)

Your style works now but will not always work as you move up in limits. However, there is nothing at all wrong with staying in the lower limits and picking up some extra money, if that's what you want. Not everyone can be a winner no matter what the limit, so you've proven you have skill.

Good luck to you...

[Joe Tall]

Raise JJ every time in every position.

Raise AJs, KQs if opening in EP, and after limpers.

Yes, you do need to raise more preflop.

Peace,
JT

[Festus22]

"I'm not suggesting that weak play is good; I'm just agreeing with you that it can be profitable at these micro-limits, and that I also struggle with the "contradiction" of my success despite my "improper" play."

I think this sums it up. Just what is "good"? A relative term to be sure. I'd say 5 BB/Hr is extremely good. I'm at 2.6 per table and I always play 2 tables - no more, no less. Maybe this style is best for this game. Until micro-limit was separated, I don't think that many small stakes posters played $0.5/1 consistently. And I do see a difference between it and the higher limits. There is absolutely no question that I'd get killed at higher limits (above $3/6) playing my current style. But it's funny how well it seems to do at the lowest limits as you point out.

I guess if it ain't broke, don't fix it despite what the mechanic says.

P.S. If you're at my table, let me know so I can vary my raising standards. Otherwise, when I raise PF, you'll know what I have. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[MaxPower]

I think that in these very loose games where most pots are mutiway, the correct strategy looks very close to what people call "weak-tight".

However, I still think you need to be aggessive before the flop. I believe the optimal strategy for these games is to play aggressively before the flop, weak-tight in multiway pots, and aggressively in shorthanded pots.

In fact, I think this is close to being correct in all games. It's just that most micro-limit pots are muti-way, so your play begins to look weak-tight.

If you are uncomfortable with raising too much before the flop, you should start by lowering your raising standards in late position. Keep your early position standards the same for now.

[Fistdantilus]

If you have a 75% showdown win rate, you are losing out on a fantastic amount of money.

It shows that you don't bluff enough, don't take hands too far, and (i'm assuming) don't value bet enough.

There's two ways for you to go here:
1. Stay in pleasantville and make your earn.
2. Step outside your boundaries a little bit and try playing a little stronger poker. I will absolutely guarantee that your win rate will drop for several hundred/thousand hands until you get used to it. The end result is that you'll play better poker, have more *fun* playing poker, and you *will* earn more because you'll be stealing pots you were not able to before because you'll have experience with marginal hands. It pretty much sounds like you only play very strong hands. It's very easy to bet/raise with that.

Fistdantilus

[rkiray]

In general I think JTG gave great advice, but here is something to consider. Move up. Maybe your style will work at a higher limit, or maybe you will have to make a few adjustments. One level won't matter all that much, but if you can get to say 2/4 you can probably make more money in the same time. That's more fun, IMO

[Festus22]

I'm surprised you advocate bluffing. In both Brunson's Super System and Jones WLLHE, bluffing is considered taboo in loose games. How do you think calling stations get their name. It's that implicit collusion thing.

[Fistdantilus]

My point is that I don't think you *ever* try it. Plus, look in brunson's book again, and you'll see that he does advocate betting into simple players. You know, the ones who check if they don't have anything and don't check-raise. I'm not saying do a "check-raise the river" sort of bluff, but if you have something like bottom pair, 1-3 people all check to you and you're on the button, hit it once or twice sometimes.

They fold often enough to make this worthwhile.

Fistdantilus

[HajiShirazu]

I think it's fine to just stay in lower limits and stick to a strategy that works, but to me, part of the fun of poker is improving my game to challenge better competition.
Also, as hard as it is to believe, Party low limits might not stay so fishy forever. Eventually, the fish will get sick of losing and either quit or buy poker books (hopefully phil hellmuth's book) and the games will dry up to some extent. Only by constantly improving your own game can you ensure that will stay ahead of the competition.

[josie_wales]

I dont know if this is right, but if I am in a situation and the thought even enters my mind of ...."Should I raise?" I IMMEDIATLEY raise.

This does not mean maniacal, but if there is a situation where it is borderline, I just raise.

JW