Help with the "blinds"

[Dentist]

When it's folded around to you in the small blind in a tourney, what are you looking for when trying to make a "steal attempt"

Tell me about how you make that decision

I've had trouble with this in both limit and no-limit hold 'em tournies...

I know you base it on your cards, relative stack sizes, opponents play, etc...

Also, i've been having trouble knowing when to defend when the SB, or even the button makes the same move on me.

Last night I had K6 offsuit with 6 tables remaining in a multi-table NL tourney.

It was folded around to me and I had my opponent outchipped about 96,000 to 65,000

Blinds 6,000 and 12,000 with a 300 ante

When folded to me, I raised a little over twice the BB, to 13,999 (yes, i raise weird amounts always - it's my game)

He called......

Then my next question - How do you decide to keep your bluff going, or to give it up?

I bet at a A 9 7 flop with a minimum 6,000 bet.
He called.

the turn was a blank - I fired the second bullet at 10,000

He called.

I checked on the end, and he checked as well, showing A 4 suited for top pair, [censored] kicker.

I wished I'd either just folded from the get go, or at least given up on the flop.

In fact, although I made the final table last night, I felt that most of the mistakes I made were after raising (from any position), flopping nothing, then betting out (with a feeler bet) on to get called and then moved off the hand.

Frequently I fired the second bullet (i didn't want to be soft) and most often that didn't work....

Any advice here?

[Copernicus]

When you fire a bullet and it misses, duck, cause somebody is going to be firing back. I like the PF raise, but in this case after the flop the somebody thats firing back is you...and your suicide attempt is likely to be succesful.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I suspect your numbers are off a bit. If the blinds are really 6K,12K, then your minimum turn bet should've been 12K, not 6K. Plus, the antes seem mighty small for those blinds, adding up to less than 1/3 of the SB.

In any event, if the BB has posted 12K out of 65K, and you're the SB and nobody has come in, I only see 2 reasonable choices. Call and play the flop, or raise all-in preflop. Any other raise is a mistake almost every time.

If the BB were 6K, which I suspect is the case, then I would limp in or raise to 16-20K, and be prepared to bet all-in on the flop.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Dentist]

yeah, greg, I think i was off on the numbers - i think the blinds were 3000-6000

He had 65K remaining after posting.

If what you say is proper play, i obviously would have had bad results since i'm sure he would have called with his ace.

Thanx for your response though - it gives me something to work with...

What would be your minimum standard for a raise from the SB in NL?

I know "it depends".. but surely you wouldn't pull a move with 2 3 unless the BB was SURE to fold.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Sure is relative. If the player is 80% likely to fold, I probably do raise with anything. It also depends a lot upon the depth of money, and how the hand is likely to play out if they just call. Also matters how much they will likely raise if they do raise, and whether you should call that amount, etc.

I'll say this much, if you're not in a super-satellite, and you're folding your SB frequently after everyone else folds to you, you're probably making some mistakes.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Lately, I've done a bit better by mixing it up and just calling from the SB and betting the pot on the flop. Seems like the same return for slightly less risk. What's your take on this play in general?

[Dentist]

The other thing that gets me is this...

When you run into a monster hand in the big blind who plays it well when you're the small blind... Greg's theory is gonna get ya broke...

My question - although I'm a big proponent of stealing blinds especially with big antes and stuff... wouldn't you rather risk your chips with a better hand in a better situation??

I know you can't wait all day for made hands, but it does carry a little more risk, especially if you don't have a decent SB hand.

[DOTTT]

I think the most important thing when it comes down to you and the big blind is always to stay consistent with your betting habits. What I mean by this is to raise the same amount with your trash hands, as well as your monster hands. The reason I say this is that at some point the big blind is going to get tired of being pushed around and push all in. I've had a lot of success using this strategy, anyone else?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

In general, I don't think this method has inherently more or less risk. It depends upon the opponent.

Some guys are quite willing to give up on any substandard hand preflop. These guys may or may not be willing to give up once they flop something, be it a draw, any pair, top pair or better only, or whatever.

Other players hate to miss seeing the flop, and will call with too many hands preflop. However, if the pot is small and they didn't hit much of anything, they are perfectly content to fold to your postflop bet.

Which play is safest depends upon who you're facing. Against some players I do prefer your play.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
When you run into a monster hand in the big blind who plays it well when you're the small blind... Greg's theory is gonna get ya broke...

[/ QUOTE ]
But you're always in trouble when you run into a well-played monster hand.

[ QUOTE ]
My question - although I'm a big proponent of stealing blinds especially with big antes and stuff... wouldn't you rather risk your chips with a better hand in a better situation??

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, but this is a strawman argument. I'd rather be dealt AA every hand also. But you don't get what you wish for. You get what you get, and you try to play it as correctly as possible.

If the opponent is going to fold often enough, you must raise. If they're going to defend perfectly, then you raise less and fold more. If they can read you like a book, you'll actually have to fold quite often.

But most of us aren't quite that easy to read, and even if they know you're weak, they still aren't going to call big raises with garbage hands where their edge is tiny. At least very few of them will. So there's still some merit to raising, since they'll be holding a weak hand most of the time.

It's all about situations. Who the opponent is and how they will likely play is part of the situation. You need to assess each situation you're in, view it through your history with this player and other historical information, and determine the optimal playing decision. It's very hard to do this well all the time, even though many decisions are pretty straightforward. The thing is, some of the decisions appear straightforward, but there is a twist available if you can spot it.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Dentist]

I guess the main thing i like about raising is that it gives you the chance to win right then without them catching a pair or better...

It doesn't give them the oppourtunity to make a "mistake" (if indeed it is one) by folding...

How often do you just "give up the blind" and give the BB the money??

I found myself doing that with some truly dreadful hands in situations where I was shortstacked with bad cards.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya Dentist,

This is an instinct thing for me. Did I steal the prior two pots? If so, I'm probably not going to try to steal from the SB, even with an okay hand like 78s (though I may well call). Have I not played a hand since Christ was a corporal? If so, I'm probably going to steal with almost any two cards. Is my opponent tight? If so, I'm stealing. Is he loose? If so, I'm not going to steal, because he's going to call no matter what. Am I sitting to the right of a monster stack? No steals there; he'll call just to pick me off. Do I have a monster stack? I'm going to steal because people are afraid to get into pots with me.

I may try to make that steal pre-flop, on the flop, or even on the turn, depending on the player in the big blind. And once in a while -- when the board falls right -- I'll even wait to make the steal until the river (that is, limp pre-flop, "crying calls" at the flop and turn, and an all-in check-raise at the river).

I do usually wait to try to steal until the blinds and antes are worth something, though. The rabbits are usually gone by then, and most people are reluctant to limp for 200 or 400 chips, so there are more steal opportunities.

Hope this helps,

Cris