ok, real proof of conspiracy in jfk ass. (no b.s. i promise)

[brad]

ok, well, when oswald shot tippet (or whatever happened) , witnesses, (more than 2, more than 3 i think) said he (oswald) fled *with another man*.

ie, oswald was acting with someone.

so

a) either oswald was part of conspiracy

or

b) if it wasnt oswald who shot tippet then that points to a conspiracy.

either way though.

[Ray Zee]

witnesses have shown over and over that they are unreliable. but sam giacanna had jfk shot over marilyn monroe and because his father turned on them. whether the cia was in on it or cuba, russia, or who else we will never know.

[Cyrus]

"I promise. OK, well, .."

Uh oh.

"When Oswald shot Tippet (or whatever happened) , witnesses, (more than 2, more than 3 I think) said Oswald fled *with another man*, ie Oswald was acting with someone."

You "think" 2 or 3?! "Whatever" happened? Sorry, Brad, but this doesn't qualify as even half-serious research. The witnesses' testimony is quoted below.

I fully respect your (quite healthy and commendable) suspicion of anything that comes down the government pike. But in this, as in the other "suspicious" aspects of the JFK assassination, you are wrong : How officer J. D. Tippit was murdered by Oswald has been established. He acted alone, in that crime as well. If any other "witnesses" came forth later on, to dispute the WC version of events, they were, at best, confused.

***

"Witness Earlene Roberts last saw Lee Harvey Oswald at a bus stop across her street. Evidently, seeing no buses in sight, LHO walked further into Oak Cliff. Near 1:15, patrolman J. D. Tippit, having being ordered at 12:45 from his outlying area to drive into Oak Cliff, saw LHO walking briskly ahead of him, east along Tenth Street. JDT, a 10-year veteran, had heard the description of the assassin over the police radio, pulled his car to the curb behind LHO and called him over. LHO turned around and walked back to the patrol car. LHO leaned close towards the passenger side, obviously exchanging some words through the open window. Whatever was said probably did not satisfy JDT because the patrolman then got out of the car and started to walk around it towards LHO.

The patrolman did not call on his radio that he was stopping a man for questions, nor did he draw his gun upon exiting the car. According to Dallas police procedures, this indicated that the patrolman was merely suspicious, but not positive he had found a suspect. [Or that JDT simply ignored procedure in that case.]

As Tippit reached the front left tire, LHO pulled out his revolver and began shooting. The patrolman was killed instantly. LHO then began running back toward Patton Avenue, emptying shells from the revolver along the way. [LHO headed towards the area of the infamous moviehouse, wherein he would eventually be arrested.]

Witness Helen Markham, standing on a street corner only half a block away, waiting to catch a bus, saw LHO murder the policeman. After the shots, LHO trotted back toward her and she began screaming. "When he saw me, he looked at me, stared at me", she testifed later. "I put my hands over my face..." Later on she quickly picked LHO out from a line-up.

Virginia Davis and her sister-in-law Barbara Davis were inside their home, on the corner of Tenth Street and Patton, when they heard the gunshots outside. They went to the front of their house, opened the door and the screen to see what happened, and saw LHO cutting across the corner of their lawn, pulling and shaking shells off his gun. Virginia looked at Oswald looking at Markham, who was screaming and pointing at him, "and then he looked at me and then smiled and went round the corner". Both witnesses later on picked out LHO easily from a line-up."

[brad]

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=tippett+oswald+two+men&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=156vadINNggr%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU&rnum=1

[Cyrus]

Apologies to Bruce Z for appropriating his favorite post title. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

"The bullets in Tippett's body cannot match to Oswald's revolver, since the slugs were a bit to small and thus could not be positively identified."

Not only that poster you're quoting from can't get the slain officer's name right, he contradicts himself only a paragraph later! Watch:

"The shells had a firing pin mark that appears to only have come from Oswald's revolver."

Correct !

"The slugs in the [officer's dead] body do not match the type of shells found [around it]."

But the poster just admitted above that there were shells that matched the ID of LHO's gun! The slugs in Tippit's body were actually and positively ID'd as having come out of LHO's revolver.

"The shells were found scatterd about, which is uncharacteristic of reloading a revolver."

Nonsense. When you've just shot a police officer and are making a run for it, the last thing on your mind is reloading properly and cleanly your revolver!

"The first police reports did indicate that the shells were from an automatic."

I never heard of that, but even it it were true, "initial reports" are often misguided. Typical of paranoid suspicion to give more credence to initial than to final.

"There are a number of witnesses. The one the Warren Report relies on was led into identifying Oswald, at first saying that in fact she did not recognize him."

There is no record of that. But even if that were true, recognizing a man immediately out of a police line-up surely is not the easiest of tasks! In any case, the record shows that LHO was easily identified in at least two separate line-ups.

"Two reliable witnesses, i.e., whose stories are not conflicting, found by [conspiracy theorist Mark] Lane tell of two men firing at Tippett, and neither having Oswald's I.D."

Funny, your poster judges the witnessess to be "reliable" because their stories do no conflict! Not only is this too stupidly easy a measure, but there are lots and lots of times whereby witnesses of the same event are truly reliable, meaning they are telling the truth, but have seen (or, more accurately, they think they've seen) different or slightly different versions of an event. The job of the police is to try and assimilate those versions into one, single reconstruction, as close tyo what really happened as possible. There, Occam's razor is usually an essential criterion.

And the version of "many assassins of Tippit" falls flat on its face in that respect.

[adios]

You're wasting your time. Tippit is a red herring but there isn't a shred of evidence to support the claim that Oswald shot Tippit. The Warren Commission lone and star witness Helen Markham is the prototypical unreliable eye witness. We can delve into why at some other time. Can't prove Oswald fired a weapon, can't match the bullets to Oswalds gun, and can't really put Oswald at the scene of the murder. Interesting how those who scream the loudest about government mistreating defendends unfairly are vigorously supporting a non adveserial process that draws absolute conclustions about guilt.

[brad]

i thought there were at least two witnesses who saw two men shoot tippett (one shooter and another guy with him).

if this isnt correct then nevermind.

but if that is correct then its still a conspiracy (or a giant clusterf***) whether oswald was involved or not.

[jokerswild]

Oswald was an FBI informant. He also worked previously for the ONI. These are undisputed facts. Even if the Warren Report were accurate, an agent of the US Government would have killed the President.

[Cyrus]

"Oswald was an FBI informant. He also worked previously for the ONI."

Lee Harvey Oswald tried to be a Communist and he failed. Then he tried to work for the U.S. government -- and he failed there too. (For more on Oswald's cringingly pathetic trip to the Soviet Union and his equally pathetic pro-Cuban, one-man demonstrations, read one of the many accounts out there).

Yes, the United States government has repeatedly if not routinely entrusted idiots with important tasks. Yes, the United States government itself comprises many fools and horses. I do think, nonetheless, that such an important task as assassinating the President would not be entrusted to a "Taxi Driver"-level of lunatic as Lee Harvey clearly was. Not even as part of a team. Not if more than one man had a look at Oswald.

Think about it : A superb team of assassins that manages to disappear from the scene of a humongously public crime without leaving a single trace, nothing?? And in that team, Lee Harvey, the buffoon? A wuss who can't get around a few questions by a mildly suspicious Tippit without ..kiling him?? There are a million things wrong with that picture.

[jokerswild]

Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr and Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade (both former FBI agents)presented to the Warren Commission Oswald's registered FBI informant #, S-179, and he drew a monthly salary of $200.00. Oswald's CIA "201" file (records regarding an employee) toook up two file drawers. He began working for the ONI in Japan.

You are a delusional nutcake. This is common public information. You are very opinionated, and uninformed in the majority of your posts.

You also post racist crap on a regular basis.

[Cyrus]

Lee Harvey Oswald was a fruitcake who didn't make it as a communist or as an agent of the United states government. You want to believe that the conspirators were so clumsy as to allow a klutz such as Lee Harvey to be among the "team" that would pull the most daring hit of all time. You want alos to believe that the conspirators (CIA, FBI, etc) were so clumsy as to allow that putz to get caught in such an stupid manner (shooting a cop, ducking into a moviehouse, etc). And you want to believe that, at the same time, the conspirators were so efficient as to disappear everybody else from the scene without so much as a trace or a visual! Believe what you want.

"What an uninformed conspiracist is Cyrus."

I suggest that the JFK assassination was not the result of a conspiracy. You suggest that it was a conspiracy. By what trick of your mind do I end up being the conspiracist? /images/graemlins/grin.gif You are funny.

"You are uninformed in the majority of your posts."

I'm a frugal sort of guy. Even the minority being OK will do.

"You post racist crap on a regular basis."

When you first posted (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=396079&page=&view=&sb =5&o=) that "Cyrus made a poor choice of words describing South African views", I thought you were making an innocent mistake. I even sent you a PM apologizing if I had posted something that seemed racist abt South Africans to you -- although I didn't recall ever writing anything about South Africans! (Only that Israel's intentions on the Palestinians' future resembles the bantustans of apartheid S. Africa.) Now I see that you are up to something completely different. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Well, this gives weight to the warning I've been given over the e-mail that you might actually be an old timer of these pages, something of a pest really, who used a handle rhyming with Dungfield. Is that you?

"You are a delusional nutcake."

Thanks. I couldn't stand the suspense.

[elwoodblues]

---Just an aside these are the same arguments I make about OJ's defense strategy...the stupidest keystone cops pull off this great conspiracy to frame OJ

[andyfox]

Well, they didn't quite pull it off. To the best of my knowledge, OJ is currently playing golf in Florida.

You are of course correct in your description of the cops; however, the cops come across as the Manhattan Project compared to the prosecution. Somehow the attorneys in the civil case were able to find a load of pictures of OJ wearing those "ugly ass" Bruno Magli shoes, the footprints of which were all over the murder sight.