Greatest Basketball Players of All Time

[Bill Murphy]

http://tinyurl.com/v73d

New book, apparently Bill James type stuff.

1. Shaq
2. Wilt
3. MJ
4. Bill Russell
5. Kareem
6. Bird
7. Magic(no way. He owned Bird & played all five spots. Champ as rookie. No worse than 3rd)
8. Oscar
10.Bob Cousy
12. Jerry West
13. Elgin Baylor
15. Dr. J

Wonder who 9, 11, & 14 are. Moses Malone & Karl Malone prolly two of them(John Stockton is 27, BTW). Hondo, James Worthy, one of the ol' Knicks?

My fave clip from article: Russell was 10-0 in Game 7's. I'm not a Celtic fan, but that's it, along w/the 11 rings & doing it under the circumstances he did(most racist city in America, etc.). Christ, Auerbach says Bird was better & Russell didn't crack the top five of a greatest Boston athletes newspaper poll a few years ago.

Russell's clearly the best team sport athlete of all time.

[Ragnar]

Wilt Chamberlain was so dominant that the officials had to allow other players to do things to him that he was not allowed to do to them.

Bill Russell had better supporting casts and better coaching. He does have the rings.

If they had allowed Wilt to grab and hack the way they allowed Russell and other players to play against him his team would have gone the equivalent of 76-6 and swept all of their playoff series. He was that damn good.

The NBA lost all of its integrity because of this and has never regained it.

Ragnar

[Wake up CALL]

I vote for Spudd Webb and Cat Johnson.

[rkiray]

I would go with :

Wilt
Shaq
MJ
Magic
Kareem
Karl Malone
Oscar
Bird
Russell
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Dr. J

[Clarkmeister]

Any list without Jordan at #1 has zero credibility.

[Bill Murphy]

I always favored Louie Dampier, myself.

[Ray Zee]

michel jordan- i want credibility
lou alcindor - you youngsters wont know him
wilt the stilt-should be #1
jerry west
elgin baylor

and the rest are tied

[andyfox]

"Russell's clearly the best team sport athlete of all time."

I don't get it. Russell played with a helluva lot of HOFers. He was a good player on a very good team.

Yogi Berra joined the Yankees i 1947. They won the Championship in 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, and 1962. And they won the AL pennant in 1955, 1957, 1960, 1963 and, with Berra as manager, in 1964. They had one bad year in 1959. The other two times they didn't make the World Series, they won 94 games (1948) and 103 games (1954). Fourteen pennants in sixteen years from 1949 to 1964. Stengel said the secret to his success was never playing a big game without "my man," meaning Berra.

Was Yogi the greatest team player in baseball history?

My personal ranking:

1) Wilt
2) MJ
3) Magic
4) Big O
5) Kareem
6) Dr. J
7) Bird
8) Baylor
9) Russell
10) West

[Josh W]

I love, and do mean LOVE, to argue.

But I won't ever argue with somebody who says that MJ was the best MARKETED basketball player of alltime. That's a no brainer if there ever was one.

But to call him the best...there's so much to argue about. All arguments would start with the definition of "best".

And there isn't a single definition of "best" I can dream up where MJ would meet the criteria.

Rings? Russell.
Making others better? Magic, Bird, Oscar
Scoring? Dunno my BBall history enough, but I'm thinking Lew Alcindor and Wilt.
Domination? Wilt and Shaq.
Heck, even slam dunk contests, he and 'Nique are tied when it doesn't come to homecourt advantage, and 'Nique leads when you erase the big-man bias.

Of course (this should be painfully obvious), I'm not saying he wasn't great. He was nothing short of great. And by anybody's definition of "best", he's gonna crack the top 4.

But today, so many fans are spoonfed by the media, and because he was/is easily the best marketed BBall player, so many people ASSUME that he's the best player. Great at the game, and greater for the game, but not the greatest ever.

Josh

[ArchAngel71857]

I'm going to say Mark Price. He could do what one of your so called bests (Shaq) could not. make free throws.


-AA

[Clarkmeister]

As always I take what you say about basketball with a grain of salt since you think George Karl is a better coach than Phil Jackson. That disclaimer out of the way....

1. I think Andy sufficiently addressed the rings issue regarding Russell. Jordan has more rings than anyone once the league expanded the playoffs to more than 2 rounds, and that's despite essentially missing 2 years, and 2 rings, while in his prime.

2. Somehow I think McHale, Parrish, Walton, Ainge, Kareem and Worthy would have all been just fine without Majic or Larry. The fact is NO ONE ever made others better like Michael did. Just what did any of the Jordanaires ever do without Michael? Crutial cogs like Kerr/Lonley/Rodman/Grant/Armstrong etc etc were all on the scrap heap when no longer playing with MJ. He elevated players so much its disgusting.

3. You don't think he was the most dominant? You never watched him play, I don't even begin to know how to address this one. Whereas Shaq disappears for weeks on end, Jordan dominated every game from start to finish.

4. Lets not forget that he was the best defensive player on the court also, in addition to the most unstoppable force on offense.

5. Lets not forget that Jordan schooled and dominated a still in his prime 30 year old Majic Johnson in his first ever Finals appearance, before he had even reached his peak.

Of course he was the best marketed ever, its easy to market the best.

[Mike Gallo]

lou alcindor - you youngsters wont know him

Gosh, I just showed my age.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[andyfox]

Hey, Shaq made free throws last night. Two of 'em. In only eight tries (actually nine, he got a do-over on a lane violation, and made the long forgotten hat-trick, first perfected by Wilt, missing three in a row. At one time, the NBA had a three-to-make-two scenario).

Wilt couldn't shoot free throws, not could Russell. But they could do a few other things.

[rkiray]

The NBA is a power game. The center is by far the most important position. MJ is a freak of nature for someone his size to be thrid on my list, especially since he never played with a decent center.

[rkiray]

If this is your criteria, Reggie Miller whops your boy, and if you add in 3 pointers it's not even a contest.

[B-Man]

Andy,

With all due respect to your baseball acumen, ranking Dr. J. over Larry Bird is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen you make.

[rkiray]

I agree with most of your point 2, except Rodman, he won 2 championship with Detroit without Michael ( and Detroit whipped Chicago both years) and played well with San Antonio after Michael. I believe he was on the team with the best NBA record 6 or more years in a row. Michael never did that.

[Six_of_One]

Did I read this list correctly? You don't even put Shaq in the top ten? I'm a little incredulous.

[dogsballs]

I'm with Clarky on this one re all-time best player. Jordan without question.

But I want to mention my favourite ever forward - James Worthy. That boy had some moves around the paint - despite having one of the ugliest dribbles I've ever seen.

I wonder how he'd be viewed if he hadn't just been a back-up attraction to Kareem and Magic.

[David Ottosen]

"Russell's clearly the best team sport athlete of all time."

"Yogi Berra joined the Yankees i 1947. They won the Championship in 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, and 1962."

Henri "The Pocket Rocket" Richard won 11 Stanley Cups with the Montreal Canadiens and was an 18 time all star /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

For basketball, I think Wilt and Jordan are far and away the 1-2 players in history, but Wilt is ridiculously clearly #1. The stats are just too impossible to argue with.

[Ragnar]

One of the odd things about Chamberlain is that he couldn't shoot free throws in games--but he could in practice. When he was with the Lakers he could outshoot Jerry West at the free throw line--on the practice court. It was all psychological.

Ragnar

[elwoodblues]

Watching MJ as I grew up in the Chicagoland area was something else. Like you said, I think one of the great things about MJ was his ability to elevate his teammates. Scotty Pippen is a good player...when he played with Michael he was a great player. Same with countless others. Part of Michael's greatness was knowing that when he was on the court he would be double/triple teamed...this allowed others on the team to be open and thus make great plays themselves. Jordan also made really big plays when he had to and was able to ignite the team/crowd like nobody else I've seen.

[Wake up CALL]

Clarkmeister don't you think the inequitable enforcement of rules and violations against Jordan made him appear better compared to other players? Particularly of past eras?

[Clarkmeister]

"Clarkmeister don't you think the inequitable enforcement of rules and violations against Jordan made him appear better compared to other players? "

You make a good point in that if Jordan went to the line every time he was fouled driving through a triple team, he likely would have averaged another 8-10ppg.

[Phat Mack]

Walt Frazier seems to be missing from the list. He was probably the most intelligent point gaurd to play the game. He may have been disqualified from the list because he played defense (although, apparently, Russell wasn't.) I'm really showing my age, but defense is where you try to impede your opponent's ability to score points, either by thwarting their attempts to shoot or move the ball, or, as Jordan used to do, by loafing at the half-court line and rooting for your other four teammates.

At one time, defense was a part of professional basketball.

[IrishHand]

It's basically impossible to compare basketball players across generations. The rules were different, the schedules were different, the level of medical technology and training regimens are different, etc.

In the era of modern basketball, 1980 on, more or less, Jordan is far and away the best basketball player. Is he the greatest ever? I certainly think so, but you can raise legitimate arguments for a number of the pre-1980 players. You cannot for any player since that time. It almost doesn't matter what standard you want to use - individual accomplishment, team achievement, effect on the NBA as a whole - Jordan was the best, most dominant player since the 70s.

[Six_of_One]

[ QUOTE ]

At one time, defense was a part of professional basketball.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Defenses are vastly improved over what they were 20 years ago. Teams used to routinely average over 100, even 110 points per game, but those days are long gone.

[rkiray]

If the defense was so good back then, why were the scores so much higher? The Detroit Pistons showed the world in the late 80s how important defense is, and basketball has been much uglier ever since.

[rkiray]

I think they were higher than that. Games used to sometimes be in the 170s without overtime. One time Wilt actually scored 100 points all by himself. Don't think that will happen anytime soon.

[ArchAngel71857]

Aren't price and miller the two all time leading free throw %age leaders. I know no stats on this because i don't follow the NBA at all.


-AA

[John Cole]

Interesting, he's third on your list, and two other general managers made him the third pick the year he was drafted.

[John Cole]

Funny, though, that if all their careers ceased at the college level, Jordan wouldn't be mentioned in the top fifty.

[rkiray]

Actually Price is number 1, and Miller is tied with Larry Bird for fifth. But Miller has made about 3x as many free throws. Price also has a better 3 pt. % than Miller, but Miller is a runaway in 3 pointers made all-time (and he's still shooting). I just don't think that Price's career was significant enough to be on any all-time list.

Last spring, ESPN did a week on the greatest clutch shooters of all time. I think they featured two a day and then at the end of the week they asked a panel of experts who they thought was best. The panel split basically evenly between Miller and MJ. I thought Sean Elliot had the most crediability on the panel. If for no other reason than he had to guard both of these guys on many occasions. He thought Miller was the best ever. I think Robert Horry and Jerry West came in thrid and fourth. Elliot also said he thought Miller was the greatest pure shooter ever. Elliot did agree with Clarkmeister that MJ is the greatest all around basketball player ever.

About a 1.5 years ago Jason Kidd was on the tonight show and talked to David Letterman about the last game of the Nets/Pacer series. He thought Miller put on the greatest individual performance of any player in any game that Kidd had played in (considering the great performances Kidd himself has had, I thought that was very generous).

A couple of nights ago, Miller put up 31 in MSG. Carlisle said he thought the Knicks should put up Miller's name or number in that arena because of all the great performances he has had there (8 pts. in 18 seconds to win a playoff game comes to mind). Carlisle also said Miller would be in the Hall of Fame just based on his MSG performances.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
As always I take what you say about basketball with a grain of salt since you think George Karl is a better coach than Phil Jackson. That disclaimer out of the way....


[/ QUOTE ]

Phew...for a second I thought maybe you had changed and actually started READING posts. Yeah, I said that, and recinded it a number of times.

[ QUOTE ]

1. I think Andy sufficiently addressed the rings issue regarding Russell. Jordan has more rings than anyone once the league expanded the playoffs to more than 2 rounds, and that's despite essentially missing 2 years, and 2 rings, while in his prime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please reread my post. I was just mentioning what some people consider a definition of "best". Many many many people say that the best is intrinsically attached with 'winning'. I am not one of these. But for those people, then Russell would have to top the list.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Somehow I think McHale, Parrish, Walton, Ainge, Kareem and Worthy would have all been just fine without Majic or Larry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speculation is fine and everything. What about Oscar? Just because Bird and Magic (I'll use the more common spelling) had great players around them, are you gonna penalize them? Moreover, are you gonna say that they did NOT make their teammates better? If you answer yes to either of those questions, then we agree to disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact is NO ONE ever made others better like Michael did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I read that sentence many times. You say that there is a fact buried in there somewhere, and I just can't find it.

[ QUOTE ]

Just what did any of the Jordanaires ever do without Michael?

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember lengthy posts from you saying how Pippen should have, if there was any semblence of justice in the world, won the MVP when Jordan 'retired'. They were a playoff team immediately after he retired.
[ QUOTE ]

Crutial cogs like Kerr/Lonley/Rodman/Grant/Armstrong etc etc were all on the scrap heap when no longer playing with MJ. He elevated players so much its disgusting.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true...except for Kerr, Rodman, Longley and Grant. You also ignore other important crucial cogs, like Pippen, and the all-star Harper. Again, look at what a jordan-less team when he retired. It wasn't a scrap-heap team.

[ QUOTE ]
3. You don't think he was the most dominant? You never watched him play, I don't even begin to know how to address this one. Whereas Shaq disappears for weeks on end, Jordan dominated every game from start to finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha. Rules were changed for guarding Wilt. Rules were changed for guarding Shaq. The only rules that were changed for Jordan was the invent of the "superstar call". As you so incredibly erroneously address somewhere in this thread, the league bias for Jordan gave him many points in many ways. People couldn't defend him. If they did, they were called for a foul. He could push off with his off hand (which he did 170% of the time). And he got the superstar call every time. I feel that I'm writing a paragraph here, hoping it helps a blind man see, because that's what your bias is making you (if you honestly believe what you wrote, and didn't write it as comic relief)

[ QUOTE ]

4. Lets not forget that he was the best defensive player on the court also, in addition to the most unstoppable force on offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great great great defender. Often the best. The best of his time, maybe. Now, I don't follow basketball nearly as closely as baseball or football, but 'the most unstoppable force' shouldn't have to be the benefactor of every call for him to achieve such status.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Lets not forget that Jordan schooled and dominated a still in his prime 30 year old Majic Johnson in his first ever Finals appearance, before he had even reached his peak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think herein lies the problem. I start my post with a discussion on definitions. If you wanna say who the best is, you gotta say what you mean by best. I don't say what I mean by best, so I surely won't say who is the best.

You, on the other hand, do just the opposite. You say who the best is, without telling us what the best is. And, all of your arguments point to circular reasoning. "the best is whoever is most like MJ". Please. You're a bulls fan, an ex-chicago-ite. You grew up admiring MJ. And you want him to be universally accepted as the best. That's fine. That's what being a fan is. But someday, when you outgrow your kiddie ga-ga eyes for Jordan get back to us. Let us know what it takes to be the best.

I never said he wasn't the best. I rarely enter conversations about who the best anything is. The problem is two fold. One, you get people like yourself who abandon reason. Two, the debate degrades to a defintion of "best".

But to say that one person is obviously the best, and that any other suggestion is worthy of ridicule, well, that's absurd.

If you truly feel that any list that doesn't have Jordan at the top is worthless, then I'm proud to disagree with you.

Josh

[Clarkmeister]

Actually, I took the criteria *you* listed to make my case (other than the brilliant "slam dunk contest" definition). Beyond that, I'm done with you.

[Zeno]

The best part of your raking is that the oaf, Shaq, is not in the top 10. That alone makes it worthwhile. Shaq is very overrated. Why doesn't he just put on shoulder pads and a football helmet when he lumbers onto the court? He is a fairly one-dimensional player.


And this is for everyone to ponder about Shaq: In the long run he will be a negative influence on basketball. MJ, Magic, Dr. J, Russell, Oscar R. etc where positive influences on the game. Shaq is not. He degenerates the game of basketball. Disagree all you want.

Of course, I no longer watch much NBA action. College ball is better, in my opinion.

-Zeno

[Josh W]

The criteria listed were examples that I've heard/read others argue. Like I said...I very rarely enter "best ever" debates, because it all comes down to a definition.

I strongly feel that the only 'right answer' in 'best ever' debates is that there ISN'T a clear cut answer. I only throw in my two cents when I see somebody saying something obviously narrow minded and biased.

When I said Karl was a better coach then Jackson, the large error in my thinking (due largely to seattle and ray allen-fandom bias) was pointed out to me. I reconsidered and stated so. I'm not asking you to reconsider what you said. But if you want to have a respected opinion, you will anyways.

Josh

[andyfox]

One-dimensional he may be, but he's pretty damn good in that one dimension. If I was starting a team from scratch today, I'd take Shaq because he's the most capable of turning any team into a winner. Nobody else in the game today could do that, except possibly for Duncan.

Possibly the fact that he's an idiot is coloring your judgment of him.

[andyfox]

The game he scored 100, Wilt shot 36 for 63 from the floor, and 28 for 32 from the free throw line, including 18 in a row at one point. He had 69 points after the 3rd quarter and then went for 31 in the fourth.

That year he averaged over 48 minutes per game (because of overtimes) and averaged over 50 points per game.

When Jerry West roomed with Wilt when he played for the Lakers, West says that when they played the Knicks in New York, it would cost Chamberlain $100 for breakfast (in those days when $100 was, well, close to $100). He'd start with a gallon of orange juice and then work his way through the menu.

He was truly larger than life in more ways than one.

[andyfox]

When Wilt got a good coach (Bill Sharman), he led the league in both rebounding and assists (think about that for a minute) and his team won 33 in a row and went 69-13.

There's a good chapter in Allan Barra's book about Wilt vs. Russell. Wilt comes out on top.

I used to see Wilt driving around town in his Mazerati in his Laker days. All you saw was the car and long arms. The seat was so far back you couldn't see most of him. Quite a sight. He claimed to have driven to New York in 28 hours. I wouldn't doubt it.

[Bill Murphy]

Yeah, and Walton & Maravich would be in the top three, along with Alcindor.

[Robk]

These took me 3 minutes to find. I can get more if you want.

Isiah Thomas: "He's the best to ever play."

Jerry West: "He's the greatest player I've ever seen."

Bill Walton: "He was the best offensive player, the best defensive player, the best passer, the most clutch player, the smartest player."

Stern: "The greates player in the history of basketball."

Daly: "Obviously the gretest player on the planet."

Lenny Wilkens: "I'd rather have played the best and lost... Michael played at the highest level... You won't see that happen again."

Shaq: "Michael will go down as the greatest ever."

Bird: "God disguised as Michael Jordan."

Seems pretty obvious to me.

[Josh W]

And to me too. He's the best I've ever seen. He'll likely go down as the best ever. He's what people strive to be. YOu don't hear people say "LeBron may be the next Drexler". I understand all that.

What you guys fail to understand is this...my contention isn't about who's the best ever. My contention is about the validity of lists that don't have him as #1.

There are a lot (ton) (many) (quite a few) ways to weigh who is the greatest ever. And there are many credible ways to measure the best ever that won't have him as #1.

They aren't MY ways to judge who the greatest is. But they are credible.

I'm not defending Wilt or Russell as the greatest ever. I'm defending the maker of lists who have them listed as greatest ever.

Josh

[andyfox]

Ty Cobb: "I believe that a line-up featuring such as Bob Feller, Joe Dimaggio, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, Willie Mays and Duke Snider would stand little show with the men of my era."

John McGraw picked Harry Hooper as his all-time best American League right fielder, "keeping Babe Ruth on the bench as a utility outfielder."

[andyfox]

I don't believe it. I've heard that too, but I still don't believe it. I think it was just Chamberlain saying it.

I'll ask Jerry West or Elgin Baylor the next time I see on of them. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Ragnar]

At one time Wilt owned a VW bug. He had the front seat taken out and drove from the back seat. Sounds like he upgraded his ride after that.

Ragnar

[Joe Tall]

1. Micheal Jordan (2nd greatest defensive player of all time, oh yeah, he could score a little too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

2. Bill Russell (greatest defensive player of all time, why block a shot into the 3rd row (Shaq) when you can start a fast break instead, PS: he could score when he had too, he played to win, period)

3. Julius Erving (everyone neglects the time he spent in the ABA as he revolutionized the game, .500 FG% in 5 years in the ABA. .300+ 3-point percentage)

4. Wilt Chamberlin (greatest offensive player of all time)

5. Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (they changed the rules of the game when he was in college because of his dominance and HE ADJUSTED (sky hook) for the love of God!)

6. Oscar Roberston (greatest 4 skill player of all time.)

7. Magic Johnson (1st 'big guard' 2nd greatest 4 skill player of all time)

8. Larry Joe Bird (greatest clutch shooter of all time, greatest pure shooter of all time)

9. Jerry West (he's the more than the symbol of the NBA, he's all around played defined it.)

10. Elgin Baylor (most underated player off all-time, in fact I should be moving him up here.)

Damn Close:
Bob Cousy (greatest 'playmaker', best court vision)
Moses Malone (easily the next big man out of the list)
Shaq (rounding off the top 5 big men)
George Gervin (4 scoring titles, 3 in row, nuff said)


I have to say one thing. None of us here truely know how great any of these players are. I have played on the same court as bench-sitting-pros, semi-pros, and numerous Div 1 players. I thought I 'knew' how good Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc. were, however, after my experiences at a higher level, I truely can say, I don't.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Robk]

Bad analogy. I may not know a lot about baseball, but I know a lot about Ty Cobb.

"Whether he was testifying before a congressional subcommittee, giving an interview, or just having a casual conversation, Cobb usually could not resist comparing baseball then and now, always to the discredit of the present-day version... in 1952, Life magazine paid him 25,000 to put his complaints down in sustained, systematic form."

I'm guessing that's where your quote came from? Cobb was universally reviled for being an arrogant, egotistical prick. To boot, he was being paid to write an article (because of his reputation for ridiculing modern players), and thus had good cause to make it "controversial and interesting". In addition most writers agree that after moving to California (in 1932) Cobb hardly watched any major league baseball at all.

I don't think one person's tendentious rant impugns the common opinion of the most respected members of the basketball community.

P.S. I have no idea who John McGraw is.

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
What you guys fail to understand is this... My contention is about the validity of lists that don't have him as #1.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I understand what you mean. You mean that these things are debatable. Which to some extent they are. What I think you don't understand is that a "debatable" point is different from a "valid" point. Damn near anything is debatable. Say I asked the the players with at least two wins in 10,000 poker tournaments who the greatest poker tournament player is, and they all say Phil Hellmuth. Doyle, Chan, Moss, etc, all say Phil. Then I ask you to make a list of the top 5 tournament poker players. You give it to me and the top guy on your list is Phil Ivey. Is your list valid?

Of course AndyFox would have us worried if Amarillo Slim's book didn't agree. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Joe Tall]

[quoteFunny, though, that if all their careers ceased at the college level, Jordan wouldn't be mentioned in the top fifty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fifty? Try 1000! Quinn Buckner had a much better college career than Jordan.

But that's the thing, Jordan worked and worked and as his body developed he started to learn how to dominate.

Peace,
JT

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'd move Bird to #3 for his passing, rebounding and intangibles. Baylor absolutely #4 and Wilt down to #10 at the highest. I know you can't blame a man for when he played, but over half his baskets would be offensive interference today. In fact, a good percentage of those would've been baskets for Hal Greer. Greer would shoot a jumper, and Wilt would catch the ball over the cylinder and "guide it in."

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I know you can't blame a man for when he played

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I couldn't move him. His numbers are too massive to put an * next too.

[ QUOTE ]
Baylor absolutely #4

[/ QUOTE ]

He was the man. I should have easily put him ahead of West and maybe ahead of Magic/Bird.

[ QUOTE ]
Bird to #3 for his passing, rebounding and intangibles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lived/breathed/watched/listened/met/idolized Larry, but I think Magic just got that 'leg up' on him. I can't deny it.

Peace,
JT

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I lived/breathed/watched/listened/met/idolized Larry, but I think Magic just got that 'leg up' on him. I can't deny it.

I missed moving Magic up. Make him 3 and Bird 3a /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Josh W]

Because the hypothetical list you've created regarding poker is a lot more cut-and-dry, my list usually won't be valid (I mean, it may be, especially if the notables didn't look at tournaments oversea or something, and I did).

In Basketball, however, there are many ways to judge greatness. In poker, there generally is one way. Do you see the difference?

Josh

[andyfox]

McGraw is still generally regarded as the greatest manager ever. He managed the Giants from about 1900 to 1930-something.

My point is that when a Jerry West or a Ty Cobb says so-and-so is the greatest ever, it should be taken with a grain of salt. While they were both themselves great players, their judgment of other players is interesting, but sometimes flawed.

[andyfox]

Between 1959 and 1969, Wilt and Russell played 162 games against each other. Wilt's teams went 74-88. Not bad.

But Wilt lost all 4 game 7's against Russell's Celtics. They lost the 4 games by a combined total of 9 points. And Wilt missed 24 free throws in those 4 games.

Wilt makes 10 out of the 24 and there'd be no question about who the greatest player ever was.

When they finally beat Russell the year the 76ers went 68-13, Wilt averaged 32 rebounds and 10 assists in the series against the Celtics.

[andyfox]

Greer didn't play with Wilt the year Wilt averaged 50.

[John Cole]

Joe,

I didn't want to get too carried away. Besides, Smith was known for reining in his players, but no way does Jordan compare to Jimmy Walker, Pistol Pete, Calvin Murphy, or many of the great guards of the 60s.

[John Cole]

How many made the list because of their pro careers?

http://www.historyofcollegebasketball.com/html/100.htm

[scalf]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif..havlicheck stole the ball; havlicheck stole the ball; havlicheck stole the ball....

gl /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[andyfox]

Wilt did commercials for Volkswagon, I think that's why he had the bug.

BTW, Russell was a terrible shooter, period. He never shot over 45% in the 1960s.

He was the NBA's greatest winner, and maybe its greatest defensive player. But he wasn't it's greatest player, or even its greatest center, by a long shot.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
How many made the list because of their pro careers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite a few. If I have more time I bring up some examples but over a quick scan, looks weighted by pros.

Thanks for the link,
Joe Tall

[Uston]

How many made the list because of their pro careers?

The fact that the list doesn't include Christian Laettner (as much as I dislike him) makes me think that the answer is "Every one of them".

[andyfox]

Not Sidney Wicks.

[rkiray]

Any list that doesn't include John Wooden as one of the top 100 college basketball players is totally bogus. But I think he graduated in either '34 or '35. Apparantly they didn't realize people played back then. The state of Indiana recognizes his as a hall of fame player as well as coach. For decades he was the only person in the college basketball HOF as both a player and coach.

[hetron]

Jordan has a legitimate claim to number one for a ver solid reason: Can you ever remember a watching an important Bulls game where you did not ultimately recognize him as the best player on the court?

[ArchAngel71857]

Ah., yes, i totally agreee that Miller probably kills price in a straight numbers game. The only reason i brought him up was

A)Poke fun at shaq
b)he lived down the street from me

-AA