awful or reasonable flop calls?

[mike l.]

this is a playing the player post. if youre going to ignore the first paragraph and just assume your typical tighter-and-more-reasonable-than-i-can-imagine 20-40 then just forget about replying. take into account this: sb is very loose and very aggressive. button is very loose but not as aggressive. i am loose and aggressive, but still far tighter and far more reasonable than these two. full table preflop it's folded to me and i openraise 2 off button w/ Ac5c. button 3 bets (again this could mean a good to very good hand but can also mean some quacky shitty hands. this guy plays fairly awful postflop btw.) no sb cuckoo says put a lid on it. this means any pair, all sorts of suited connectors and one-offs, some other shiit, as well as great hands of course. back to me and i call and button calls.

now the flop is J76 w/ one club. sb bets, i call. should i make this call?

then button raises and sb calls. i call again. should i make this call?

how awful or okay are these calls?

[Ed Miller]

I dunno.. if you are gonna play A5s against these two bozos for four bets (I would not... I'd fold preflop) then I don't think you can fold on the flop. I certainly wouldn't fold the second time, closing the action.

[Coilean]

The SB's flop bet was probably automatic after his preflop cap, so why not raise rather than call? His starting hand range hasn't improved, so your A high might be good, you have a chance to knock out the button and assume last position, you still have several ways to win if you are behind, and if you get reraised by either player you can probably fold after the turn blanks with a clear conscience. Anyway, after you just call and it gets raised, I'm with majorkong: call since you close the action and the pot is now even bigger.

[mike l.]

coilean,

button is sort of a calling station. meaning, for instance, he will call two cold on that flop w/ something like ATo or KT. and sb will reraise me in particular with all sorts of hands. so how about just calling as i did?

[Coilean]

Heh, if the button will call two cold with AT/KT on that flop, I'm having a hard time coming up with a hand you could get him to fold (maybe 22?). In that case, just calling looks more viable. I don't want to give up yet on the flop, but the whole hand is starting to leave me with a feeling of buyer's remorse /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Maybe you're better off just folding preflop with one of these guys acting behind you; stick to playing hands that you don't mind paying to see a showdown with since you will get paid off handsomely by almost anything. I hope you were on the seat change list, having these guys behind you sucks.

[Gabe]

Lately, I’ve all but given up on raising with A5s, against blinds like this. They’re often perplexed by my open limp from late position. If I spike the A, they never put me on it. If they check to me, on the flop, I bet. The tricky player is less likely to put me to the test with a smaller pot. The less tricky player is less likely to chase with a pair draw on the flop.

After all that money going in preflop, calling is okay, an A could be gnarly. If you make the first call, you make the second.

[Kevin J]

I think both calls on the flop were pretty bad. In fact, you should probably have folded for two more pre-flop.

You're hand is supposed to be in a lot of trouble here and even when it's not, you do not bear the sole responsibility of keeping players like this in line. I'd prefer to sit back and watch them push their chips back and forth until I have a decided edge.

[Ed Miller]

Putting four bets in with A5s before the flop and then folding when your maniac opponents sneeze is not winning poker.

It's true he doesn't have much of a hand, but his opponents often won't have much of a hand either. If you are willing to bloat the pot preflop and then drop your hand to any pressure after the flop, you are asking to get run over.

I avoid this situation by trying to make sure I don't put in four bets before the flop with A5s.

[Ed Miller]

Maybe you're better off just folding preflop with one of these guys acting behind you; stick to playing hands that you don't mind paying to see a showdown with since you will get paid off handsomely by almost anything. I hope you were on the seat change list, having these guys behind you sucks.

This is my tactic. If there are very unpredictable, loose-aggressive opponents yet to act behind me, I tighten way up. If I do play a hand, it is not one that I would be considering folding on a marginal flop for one bet.

[mikelow]

Even playing the player, this is a bit rich for me. Just call before the flop. On the flop, I'm folding to the raise.

[ML4L]

Hey mike,

I made a post the other day examined a similar (but FAR more questionable) situation. In my opinion, I think that calls such as these are borderline, but definitely acceptable. You have two backdoor draws (one to the nuts) and an overcard. The pot already has 13 SBs when the action gets to you the first time. The only reason that I probably don't call the first time is because you don't close the action, and there is a decent chance that the button will raise. So, you have to anticipate that you will be paying two small bets, not just one. If button will fold an ace or small pocket pair, I like a raise here better than a call...

Once you've called once, the second call is clear. You close the action.

I'm interested to see what others think (because I doubt that many people will like the calls...). Hope it worked out.

ML4L

[ALL1N]

A5s is not a hand I'd raise from 2 off the button in most games, let alone one with 2 LAG's behind you.

On the flop, I believe you should fold at the first opportunity. They're LAG, man! You will often get caught in a whipsaw or at least in for 2 bets.